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[Leafsnail]

I have just thought of an idea that I hope will be extremely dwarven.  The idea is:

What if enemies sent secret agents in with your immigration waves?

After all, noone checks your immigrant's intentions when they arrive.  So why not have some interesting things happen with them?  I'll also throw around some ideas that would make both social dwarves and fortress guards useful for something.

SUMMARY
Spies, thieves and saboteurs will all arrive in immigration waves.  They may or may not have a profession.  To get you off track, they will also do some of the work you ask them too.  Another thing to note is that all three carry "Concealed" items.  This means they cannot be seen on the dwarves (or possibly another race, if multirace fortresses are possible in future) inventory screen.  Spies and saboteurs would always be attached to a civilisation, but thieves can also be freelance.

SPIES
Spies are devious dwarves sent by the enemy.  While they may do the things you ask them to and look like a good little dwarf, they will take longer breaks than usual, and spend the time wandering around the fortress.  Their aim is to build a mental map of your fortress, counting the numbers of military and locating as many traps, levers and buildings as possible.  It will also try to blend in by talking in the dining hall, but dwarves with good "Judge of Intent" skill may realise something is amiss when talking to him, in which case the spy is discovered.  Fortress guards may also "arrest" a dwarf acting suspiciously, and take him for questioning with the Captain of the Guard.  If the Captain of the Guard has good enough social skills, the spy will also be uncovered.
How do spies dissapear?
If a spy is not discovered by the time he has explored the fortress as much as he intended to, he will simply wander out of the front doors of your fortress.  After a while, he will be revealed as a spy as your dwarves realise he is making a run for it.  This means your military becomes hostile towards him, but by the time this happens it may be too late, and he may escape anyway.  If he escapes, he will inform the race who sent him of the traps in your fortress, allowing them to avoid them, as well as giving them a rough idea of how big a siege to send.  Expect a large siege if you let a spy go.
How do you stop a spy?
If a spy is discovered while socialising, he will draw his concealed knife (he will also reveal a hidden "Knife user" skill).  He will then stab the person who discovered him, and make a run for it out of your fortress.  He will be prepared to stab anyone in his path, but unless he's already close to the exit of your fortress it's more than likely your military/ fortress guard will intercept and kill him.  Discovering a spy this way can lead to injury or death, however.  If he is discovered by the captain of a guard during questioning (members of the royal guard are always present at questioning) he will have two options.  If he thinks he can take on the captain and any members of the royal guard who are there, he will draw his knife and attack.  If not, he will surrender and be taken for jail, and incarcerated indefinately (or hammered, if you have a hammerer).

THIEVES
Thieves are similar to spies in some respects.  They can be sent by an enemy to help gather for the cause, or they can be a thief all on their own.  All thieves carry a concealed sack, which they will put items found on the floor (they will not take any raw materials such as stone, and have a preference for light objects) into.  The sack has a fairly large capacity, and they could easily walk off with several thousand dwarfbucks of items if undiscovered.  A civved thief getting away may also mean a siege from that civ is on its way.  Thieves are captured in a similar way to spies, only if a fortress guard actually sees a thief steal something (thieves tend to avoid fortress guards though) the alarm will immediately be raised.
How do thieves dissapear?
Thieves dissapear in a very similar way to spies, and once they are a significant distance from your fortress, they will simply run off the map.  If they escape, your items are gone.
How do you stop a thief?
A thief is stopped in a similar way to a spy (other than the fact that a fortress guard can directly rumble them) but a thief carries no weapon, and will simply make a run for it if discovered.  If he is desperate, he may also drop his sack, which can be rather heavy (a slowed dwarf can also indicate a thief).  If a thief is surrounded or seriously injured, he may surrender, leaving him at the mercy of your fortress guard and hammerer.  A thief can also wrestle, but is only likely to do so against a weak, single fortress guard or a civilian in his way.

SABOTEURS
Saboteurs arrive in a similar way to thieves and spies, but will carry around concealed building destroying equipment.  He will, during his free time, try to dismantle or damage buildings, start fires and pull levers.  A saboteur can be a serious threat, and so a strong fortress guard is essential.  It is also worth noting that a saboteur is often encumbered by the weight of the equipment, so he may be spottable by you (you may then take matters into your own hands).
How do saboteurs dissapear?
Saboteurs will stay in your fort being a nuisance/ causing chaos until discovered.
How do you stop a saboteur?
Saboteurs can be stopped in similar ways to a spy, and if a guard catches him breaking something, he will raise the alarm.  Bear in mind, however, that saboteurs will avoid guards like the plague.  If discovered, the saboteur will either surrender, and let the fortress guard deal with him, or if he thinks he can get away, will drop his equipment and try to escape.  Later on in the game, as your civs descend deeper into war, saboteurs can carry concealed knives and even swords, and a legendary swordsman saboteur suddenly on the loose is not out of the question.  Fortress guards would be required to apprehend them.

So, what do you think of these ideas?  I thought they might make the game a lot more Fun, especially later on, and give the fortress guard something to do other than get injured, and the hammerer something to do other than inhale molten rock.

[Nicpon]

Nominating one of them as captain would be fun.

[Leafsnail]

Nominating one of them as captain would be fun.

Hehe.  He would have a strangely irrational fear of his own guards though.

[Poil]

Great ideas but I can see a few problems with it. I don't know about you guys but my guards never do anything other than spending their time at the drink stockpile, dining room, meeting hall, barracks and the corridors between them. Any saboteurs or thieves would have free reign over the rest of the fort. Not to mention how easily dwarves become legendary in social skills.

[Cheeetar]

I love this idea, if only so I have a good reason to have inbred fortresses with no immigrants.

[Leafsnail]

Great ideas but I can see a few problems with it. I don't know about you guys but my guards never do anything other than spending their time at the drink stockpile, dining room, meeting hall, barracks and the corridors between them. Any saboteurs or thieves would have free reign over the rest of the fort. Not to mention how easily dwarves become legendary in social skills.

Eh, maybe they could start doing patrols of the fortress to see if they could find anything fishy.  And having legendary in social skills wouldn't guarentee that the intruder is caught - at higher levels, the intruder himself may have better social skills (like how goblins start sending master thieves after a while).

I love this idea, if only so I have a good reason to have inbred fortresses with no immigrants.

Possibly, but I'm hoping that with a good fortress guard, captain and hammerer you should be able to take on anything sent at you.  Or you could just do "Spy checks" whereby you boil them in magma.

[Joakim]

In general it's an awesome idea.

Spies and saboteurs might get specific objectives. If/when the siege AI gets more clever it might realize that the drawbridge must be lowered. Solution? Send in a saboteur which will pull the correct lever when the siege arrives. Assuming he figured out which lever he needs to pull.

Though in most cases I think spies should be careful with levers and stuff. Otherwise the AI will have to figure out the complex trap schemes we all love to come up with. Although I guess it makes sense for the saboteur to just screw around in the control room.

The fortress guard should check out immigrants upon arrival. As it is they are marked as immigrants upon arrival. They should stay as such until a fortress guard has cleared them. Better guard => higher chance of early detection.

Regarding the fortress guard, you should be able to set up patrol routes and guard points for the guard, much like for a military squad. These will then be manned automatically. Hopefully this comes in the next version. So you can post guards in the control room, at the gates, etc.

Also: The ability to do the same in adventure mode would be neat.
EDIT: "do the same" = "steal stuff", not setting up guard posts, although that would be cool too.

[Leafsnail]

Yep, sounds good.  I was thinking that eventually the fortress guard could be the security force/ defence of your fortress, while your military is sent elsewhere to hit the enemy where they live.  The idea of pulling levers is that they'd just cause chaos - so maybe cause some floods, hit the lever of doom (so it might be a good idea to have guards with rotating shifts (should be possible next version) guarding your "Master lever" at all times).  I was thinking that maybe they could do some simple things, like work out how to raise a drawbridge during a siege, but just pull randomly most of the time (for a lot of fun).  Fortress guard idea of checking immigrants is good too.

Incidentally, when I said "Start fires" I meant in a similar way to starting fires in adventure mode.  However, they would only do this if you have buildings and stuff around the fires - random fires outside and a fleeing dwarf would look pretty suspicious

[Pyrophoricity]

I love the idea; especially since you could throw in Vigilantes to combat the criminals. I can see it now; A fast-talking crossbow-wielding dwarf chasing down a crazed jewel theif while the rest of the the fort watches on in horror.

I'm also 100% in favour of utilising fortress guard, I always apoint them and like the flavour they bring so actually having a use for them beyond sparring constantly would be great.

[Kashyyk]

I second this idea totally, and would vote for it if it went on eternal voting.

[penguinofhonor]

At first, I thought "No, I don't like having immigrants secretly sabotaging my fortress," but then I realized that, as long as they had a reasonable chance of being detected with a well-maintained and skilled Fortress Guard, these would be great fun. Imagine all the crazy things that could happen.

---

Momuz Dumatnazom walked along the dim hallway, making his way across the underground fortress to his bedroom where his wife was waiting for him. He looked over his shoulder nervously. He was always nervous, for some reason that none of the other dwarves could understand, but he was more nervous today than he had been in a while. Twice he was sure that he'd seen someone following him, but it was probably just some of the kids.

He finally found his way to his room, the obsidian door distinctly decorated with bands of goblin bone. They reminded him of the bars in a prison cell, causing him to glance over his shoulder again. Nobody. He opened the door and walked in.

"You're home, my little sweet pod," his wife said. Momuz had been happily married to Reg Cerolonrel for two years, to the day. The other dwarves had criticized Reg for marrying a dwarf three months after he had moved to the fortress, especially one as shady as Momuz, but she payed them no attention. The spouses kissed and rubbed beards. They walked towards their bed and sat down on the edge. "I know we're not supposed to do this," Reg said quietly, "But I brought some plump helmet roast up for us to eat alone together, since it's our anniversary."

"Thanks," Momuz said blankly.

"Is something wrong, sweetie?"

"I've just been worried recently."

"Oh, it's nothing. I heard rumors that the guard is talking about arresting you, but they can't be true. You haven't done-"

"Momuz Dumatnazom," a gruff voice said. Momuz turned around just in time to see a fist connect with his face, and collapsed to the ground.

---

Momuz sat in a chair in one of the deepest, dampest parts of the fortress. He didn't have a choice, really. He was held to a chair by an iron chain, and wasn't going anywhere any time soon. His bruised and broken body assured that would be true even if he could somehow escape the chains. The guards had beaten him for a couple minutes after he had been knocked out just to make sure he wasn't getting back up for a while.

The Captain of the Guard, Atis Urusfikod, walked into the room, holding a handful of crumpled papers. "Momuz Dumatnazom, you are charged with being a spy. The penalty for this is death by hammering. How do you plead?"

Momuz spit out a tooth. "Innocent," he said. "I never did any spying. I would never spy on this fortress. My love is here."

"Your love?" he said. "How do we know that she isn't a spy too? Should we hammer her along with you? Or did you just marry her as a cover. That would make sense, considering how fast you got married after moving here."

"I never did any spying," Momuz pleaded. "I was going to but I saw Reg and it was love at first sight. You have to believe me."

"'Love at first sight?' That sounds quite poetic. Fitting, considering you were a spy for the elves. We'll spare your wife, but you deserve a hammering for even thinking about working for those tree-hugging scum. Hammerer!"

"Yes?" a burly dwarf said, stepping into the room. The steel hammer he held glinted morbidly as he spun it around.

"This traitor's hammering is scheduled for tomorrow. Until then, take him off to the cells."

[Byakugan01]

At first, I thought "No, I don't like having immigrants secretly sabotaging my fortress," but then I realized that, as long as they had a reasonable chance of being detected with a well-maintained and skilled Fortress Guard, these would be great fun. Imagine all the crazy things that could happen.

---

Momuz Dumatnazom walked along the dim hallway, making his way across the underground fortress to his bedroom where his wife was waiting for him. He looked over his shoulder nervously. He was always nervous, for some reason that none of the other dwarves could understand, but he was more nervous today than he had been in a while. Twice he was sure that he'd seen someone following him, but it was probably just some of the kids.

He finally found his way to his room, the obsidian door distinctly decorated with bands of goblin bone. They reminded him of the bars in a prison cell, causing him to glance over his shoulder again. Nobody. He opened the door and walked in.

"You're home, my little sweet pod," his wife said. Momuz had been happily married to Reg Cerolonrel for two years, to the day. The other dwarves had criticized Reg for marrying a dwarf three months after he had moved to the fortress, especially one as shady as Momuz, but she payed them no attention. The spouses kissed and rubbed beards. They walked towards their bed and sat down on the edge. "I know we're not supposed to do this," Reg said quietly, "But I brought some plump helmet roast up for us to eat alone together, since it's our anniversary."

"Thanks," Momuz said blankly.

"Is something wrong, sweetie?"

"I've just been worried recently."

"Oh, it's nothing. I heard rumors that the guard is talking about arresting you, but they can't be true. You haven't done-"

"Momuz Dumatnazom," a gruff voice said. Momuz turned around just in time to see a fist connect with his face, and collapsed to the ground.

---

Momuz sat in a chair in one of the deepest, dampest parts of the fortress. He didn't have a choice, really. He was held to a chair by an iron chain, and wasn't going anywhere any time soon. His bruised and broken body assured that would be true even if he could somehow escape the chains. The guards had beaten him for a couple minutes after he had been knocked out just to make sure he wasn't getting back up for a while.

The Captain of the Guard, Atis Urusfikod, walked into the room, holding a handful of crumpled papers. "Momuz Dumatnazom, you are charged with being a spy. The penalty for this is death by hammering. How do you plead?"

Momuz spit out a tooth. "Innocent," he said. "I never did any spying. I would never spy on this fortress. My love is here."

"Your love?" he said. "How do we know that she isn't a spy too? Should we hammer her along with you? Or did you just marry her as a cover. That would make sense, considering how fast you got married after moving here."

"I never did any spying," Momuz pleaded. "I was going to but I saw Reg and it was love at first sight. You have to believe me."

"'Love at first sight?' That sounds quite poetic. Fitting, considering you were a spy for the elves. We'll spare your wife, but you deserve a hammering for even thinking about working for those tree-hugging scum. Hammerer!"

"Yes?" a burly dwarf said, stepping into the room. The steel hammer he held glinted morbidly as he spun it around.

"This traitor's hammering is scheduled for tomorrow. Until then, take him off to the cells."

Wow....so perfect. Spies should also avoid using their normal name if they have a name that is, for example, goblin, human or elvish, and have a "fake" name that would be revealed upon capture.
A bad fortress guard might also arrest innocent dwarves (Instant Hammerer just add water!), but the penalties for ignoring one would actually have a real impact. The hammerer could then function as a sort of inquisitor/detective, investigating various dwarves and gathering "evidence" that could lead to arrest. A more skilled hammerer would be better at gathering evidence. Basically, once he arrives you might have less of a chance of arresting innocents, at the cost of inevitable hammerings if your jails fill up. A skilled book keeper (they probably should have their EXP gain tuned down) might notice strange losses and report them.

Also, from the other thread was the idea of thieves guilds which would build hideouts in the sewers if waste management was implemented. Actually having a thieves guild appear, and decide whether to work WITH them for some profit (at the cost of lost items or occasionally artifacts) or eliminate them (putting your fort in conflict with them) after discovering them would be interesting. They might be able to bribe guards and/or the hammerer depending on the personality of the guards/hammerer as well, putting off detection.

[Flying Carcass]

I like your ideas; would be fun keeping an eye out for Urist McSpy.

On a side note, while its not the same as your suggestion, I've come across an enemy sabateur behavior. I gave the appropriate tags to a custom enemy civilization to make them both thieves and building destroyers; as a result I've had hidden enemies destroying doors, workshops, and trade depots without being discovered until some havoc's been wrecked.

[Vattic]

I like these ideas.

I just thought of something else saboteurs could do, apparently sabotage includes "subversion, obstruction, disruption, and/or destruction" which certain gives them more potential actions to cause problems in your fort.

Subversion, perhaps they could through conversation lower morale, promote riots generally try and get dwarves mad at the mountain homes, nobles and even each other.

Obstruction, they could possibly lock doors, jam levers so that they need pulling a number of times to unjam them. Tripping dwarves could also apply here. Claiming doors and rooms forcing you to claim them back like in reclaim mode.

Disruption, I think pulling leavers falls under this to a certain extent but then these are fairly similar words and have some overlap.

Destruction, fairly self-explanatory really.

[Leafsnail]

Excellant, Peguin.  It would be weird, I suppose, since spies in a large fortress could stay for quite a while, and if undiscovered, saboteurs would never leave.  Incidentally, it might also be an idea to make them get harder - so while you get an incompetant thief after your first siege who just randomly grabs things and barely attempts to avoid detection, you could start getting extremely devious spies later on.

And the name thing sounds good.  They would, of course, make up a backstory and a name - but remember, in conversation, they may accidentally slip/ not be convincing enough for the hammerer.