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[Lear]

If nothing else I have learned from AP US History: PINCER MOVEMENT.

I support the idea of setting up your own formations whether role based or squad-by-squad for more specialization. An option to rotate the facing of the formation would be good as well.

[Mephansteras]

The idea of troops moving in concert with one another (either forward or back) is certainly a measure of discipline. Not specifically a Formation aspect, but it would definitely help make the formations more effective if the dwarves actually did what they are supposed to.

Hmm...what about Meta-formations? By this, I mean the ability to set up formations of formations.

So...

Let's take a basic Flanking formation, since it's simple

That could give us something like this:

nf	nf	nf	nf	nf
nf	F2	F3	F4	nf
nf	nf	nf	nf	nf
F1	nf	nf	nf	F3
nf	nf	nf	nf	nf

Where nf is no formation, and F1-F5 are different groups with their own formations.

F1 and F5 could be, say Mixed weapon groups of melee and marksdwarves set in a wedge formation. Maybe lightly armored for mobility. F2-F4 are groups of heavily armored dwarves in a shield line formation. The shield line groups take the brunt of the enemy attack and F1 and F5 move in from the sides to flank.

[Kashyyk]

I keep thinking about the drag and drop formation thing in Total War. Would that be implementable?

[Davion]

If nothing else I have learned from AP US History: PINCER MOVEMENT.

Indeed!

See: Battle of Cannae

[SirHoneyBadger]

I don't know how well people would react to this, so feel free to take it with a grain of salt, but I was thinking that while dwarfs might base their tactics and formations on the Viking model, humans might base theirs on the Greeks, elves on the Romans and the English, goblins on the Mongols and maybe the Zulu as well, and kobolds on a mix of various historical guerilla tactics (the Gurkas, the Vietnamese, AmerIndian, what have you), and possibly some additional Asian influence (just for the purpose of differentiating them from everybody else).

That'd give each civ lots of options, while giving each one a unique military tradition to draw on, and giving us a lot of history to work with.

[jamoecw]

since the game is pretty detailed, i don't think some sort of arbitrary formation bonus(es) would be appropriate or necessary.  that said, if you look at ancient formations there was actually only a few different factors that formations did:
for shields:
shoulder to shoulder - allowed large shields to protect someone next to you, as well as yourself.  also both brace the shield.
 - allowed smaller shields to be braced by someone next to you (like the large shield).
 - bucklers don't really gain benefit
shield touching the back of the man in front of you allows non buckler type shields to reinforce the person in front of you against getting knocked down as well as helping the man in front to push forward against opposition.

i am out of time now, but i will continue later, for various weapons and such.
[edit]
spear weapons:
depending on the length of the spear you attack at a certain range, too close and you can't attack them with the point.  by having ranks of men deep one is threatened from the thrust of a spear no matter how close he gets to the man in front, since someone behind him will use his spear over the shoulder of the man in front.
when one has adequate room to swing his spear he can use it as a quarterstaff to attack those that get too close, the longer the spear the more unwieldy this is.
having room behind him one may draw the spear back to bring the point closer to him so as to thrust at enemies that get too close, again the longer the spear the more unwieldy this is.
guandao/flail/staffs:
large heavy weapons design for slashing tend to need room to swing, and would not do well with people shoulder to shoulder since one could not get a proper swing in.
projectile weapons:
you need room in front of you in order to use the weapon, thus you would not be able to stand in close rank with others and still use your weapon.
slings/staff slings:
an error in firing would result in launching the projectile earlier or later than normal putting it higher or lower than intended, which if there is a friendly in front of you that you are firing over, you might hit.  also like most projectile weapons you need room in front of you in order to properly use the weapon.
wrestling/estoc:
estoc was used as a can opener for armor, and thus involved grappling.  grappling would need room to maneuver, allowing for dodging and wide sweeping movements, and room to fall when bringing someone down.

there i think that is it.

what does this mean in dwarf fortress?  well something like things being possible for the critter to do other than normal, when standing immediately next to or behind another critter in "formation" (or unable to something they would normally be able to do).  hence with say a wedge formation, the bulk of people behind the critter at the very tip of the formation, pushing him and steadying him when needed would allow him push others out of the way easier than normal, and even more so keep from getting pushed away or knocked down.

i would also assume that a critter can't move past another critter unless it allows him to (or gets knocked down/away).  also one wouldn't be able to use their weapon when a friendly is in the same square, or ranged weapons if their is a friendly in the square immediately in front of them, or guandao and such weapons if one is to the immediate right and immediate left (maybe even to either side if their is a want for greater restrictions).

for wrestling, i would make it so that a critter loses its defensive bonus from wrestling when next to a critter to the immediate right, left, or back, and would gain attack penalties against opponents with its allies to its immediate right, left, or back.  in a situation where a critter in a tight formation tries to grapple a critter in a tight formation, the grappler would have the advantage, since although it is penalized, the grapplee has no defensive wrestling skill (from formation) and thus needs to rely on his other defensive things (which actually might be pretty good with overlapping shields and such).



in summation this would allow effective pike squares, phalanxes, wedges, columns, and lines (assuming you are using the right weapons for such), without having any sort of predefined formations in mind for any sort of bonuses.
[/edit]

[Granite26]

Never underestimate the extent to which actual military technology dictated formations.

To a certain extent, phalanx style formations worked by maximizing the number of your guys that were attacking a minimized number of their guys.  (Guy runs up to formation, is attacked by 3 sword guys in the front and 3 2-range spear guys in the back...  6 vs 1 unless the opponent is also in a tight formation)  However, standing that close is an invitation to massacre from massed fire or artillery.  Anyway, these are 'free' once you get your dwarves to do it.

I'd be ok with a slight shield bonus for this, where each dwarf could take -1 to AC to give his neighbors +1.  In a phalanx, that would be a +1 - +4 (+7 in the center) bonus to defense, not from the formation, just from a mass of dwarves using a skill.

jamoecw:  don't forget axes, particularly thrown ones, being used to destroy or render shields combat ineffective.  My favorate barbarian tactic is throwing axes on approach, not to kill opponents so much as to lodge in shields to weigh them down.  Imagine the effect on a traditional phalanx formation if the front lines were peppered with broken shields.

[jamoecw]

i didn't go into throwing axes and such due to it not being a formation thing.  javelins were much more common for the purpose of rendering a shield useless, since it also is long.  composite bows were used as well to pin shields to arms, making them difficult to move in order to attack when the time came.  once you get to the medieval period the variety of weapons and tactics drop quite a bit, since things have been romanized for so long.

[Granite26]

I would see a 'lose formation with an initial thrown weapon attack' to be a formation...

Rather, for me, a formation should be how the units with what weapons stand, and that would include a thrown weapon.  So a barbarian type charge that required a lose formation for long slashing weapons (axes and longswords) and the troops were also carrying a throwing weapon would count, and be relatively 'no special rules except how they stand'

Plus, shields should be taking damage in the next release.  That should be awesome and help strategy. (although I can see the Urist leaves battle to get new shield bugs now)

[Pilsu]

I can see tantrum spirals caused by busted masterwork shields

[jamoecw]

in dnd artifacts are essentially indestructible, and magic items far more durable.  if durability is based on relative quality of weapon vs. shield, then masterwork shields pretty much won't break unless against a masterwork weapon, and even then it wouldn't be likely unless it was a much better masterwork.  although i am not set on the idea of breaking shields, i am sure that when toady makes different materials act different that is when shields will break, if ever.

[Nivim]

 Just wondering about the shield-wall/archers formation, normally, an archer will arc his shots over his friends, creating a rain of arrows. If the formation is complete (unbroken by skirmishing and using skilled military dwarves), then the archers should know to shoot up instead of strait into their meatshield's skulls. Tying into this, there are times when not only a vertical wall of shields is required, but a horizontal roof of shields as well. So you might need to double up on the hammer-shield users to get best protection. However, I guess this will be one of those difficulty things, whether or not the enemy general has taught his troops how to fire a proper rain of arrows.

[jamoecw]

in a phalanx the hoplites would angle their spears up and forward in order to use them to deflect incoming missiles.  for the most part groups of archers were a little exposed to enemy fire.  but since a tortoise formation was used not only to protect the legionaries, but also sometimes an important person or even a handful of people, it begs the question what if you want to protect a few elite marksdwarfs while reloading, then rain death from above, how would one go about having some simple way of having them in a tortoise formation without having to have a tortoise formation predefined.  giving both the support bonus as if their shields were to the backs of their allies, and the overhead shield bonus is silly since that was the tortoise's main weakness, it was a group of troops that didn't brace each other properly, and were to close together to fight effectively when pushed and jostled into their allies.

[Granite26]

1:  I think shields should be like arrows, expendable items.  Alternatively, MW items could have a 'damaged beyond usefulness' state rather than a 'damaged beyond repair' state.  At that point, the dwarf tosses it aside.  Later, it can be fixed.

On that note, if item damage comes in, there should be multiple levels of expendability.  An armoursmith shouldn't flip out if the champion gets his armour all slashed up, ruining the armour but saving his life where lesser armour would have meant his death.

2:  I'm not arguing that formations shouldn't be defined, just the bonuses.  What's been described could still easily be defined by different units in different stances (use spear for defense = + 1 AC in 5 ft radius)

[jamoecw]

personally i like the idea of expendable items based on item material, and higher quality being tougher, with damage ones being repairable.

i was trying to get around being hands on enough to say what the dwarf would use his items for, but i can't seem to figure out how to do that and still have them use actual formations without prescripted formations being in, i guess is they can do something that gives them different bonuses that can't be switched readily based on situation, then you should define what they should do while using that formation.  which i guess could eventually lead to use of pavise and stakes (if they ever get in the game).