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Author Topic: More Complex Weapons.  (Read 5842 times)

SirHoneyBadger

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Re: More Complex Weapons.
« Reply #60 on: June 10, 2009, 06:57:10 pm »
Something else that might be nice to see, as far as more complex weapons, would be the option of cutting larger swords down into daggers. This was a pretty common practice in several different cultures, and would be a really nice option, once we (hopefully) get broken weapons, of putting broken, worn out, and poor quality blades, to use.

Poor quality swords might even be reworkable into high quality knives, by master craftsdwarfs.
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Dwaref

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Re: More Complex Weapons.
« Reply #61 on: June 10, 2009, 07:16:04 pm »
Did strider ever fight with narsil while it was broken? That human dude cut the ring from Sauron's hand with it at least.
It'd be like a heavy dagger, with a large crossguard, and unable to stab with.
Hafts of broken axes and spears might concievably be used as batons or short spears.
Approving of any and all weapon modifications and properties of weapon destruction!
Attach bayonettes to crossbows! Attach a crossbow to shields! And warhammers!
The dwarven "alcohol flamethrower"(TM)! Make a hose out of leather, stick it up to a pump!
...
Magma hose! http://images.google.com/images?hl=sv&q=metal%20hose&lr=&um=1&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wi
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SirHoneyBadger

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Re: More Complex Weapons.
« Reply #62 on: June 10, 2009, 07:27:28 pm »
Well, you could use it broken, I don't have any problem with that, but I also think it would be fun to make swords into daggers once in a while, too.
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Dwaref

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Re: More Complex Weapons.
« Reply #63 on: June 10, 2009, 07:53:13 pm »
My biggest issue with metalworking is the LOSS of metal when smelting. Though i guess you could make second-grade weapons by reheating the stuff and having another go at it.
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SirHoneyBadger

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Re: More Complex Weapons.
« Reply #64 on: June 10, 2009, 08:03:47 pm »
I suppose you could capture the iron filings, if you really wanted to. Wouldn't be hard to, if we ever get functioning lodestones.
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Dwaref

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Re: More Complex Weapons.
« Reply #65 on: June 10, 2009, 09:18:18 pm »
What filings? Even sharpening of weapons does not file away anything much. Sharpening stones etc, are mostly used to re-align the edge in line with the blade. It bends during use, and eventually the edge grows jagged.

Having a grinding stone actually GRIND AWAY metal is only hurting the blade. It removes the surface hard forged edge, and only exposes the deeper more toffee-like metal.
During the metalworking process, a piece of metal stays a piece of metal! Even more-so in DF, where one bar(usually) equals one item. In reality, the metal is sold in bars, and a sufficient amount is molten down for the purpose, the left-overs stored as a not-bar.

I'd say that ANY amount of metal lost when sharpening is neglegieble.
It's nothing like the smelter loss of 50 to 70% of the metal!
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He is somewhat reserved. He prefers to be alone. He doesn't need thrills or risks in life. He is never optimistic or enthusiastic about anything. He has a fertile imagination. He is open-minded to new ideas. He is put off by authority and tradition. He is very straightforward with others. He is very disorganized. He thinks it is incredibly important to strive for excellence. He has very little self-discipline. He takes time when making decisions. He doesn't really care about anything anymore.

SirHoneyBadger

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Re: More Complex Weapons.
« Reply #66 on: June 10, 2009, 09:36:52 pm »
Swords were cut down all the time, Dwaref.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirk

"Dirk is a Scots word for a short dagger; sometimes a cut-down sword blade mounted on a dagger hilt, rather than a knife blade."

http://www.oregonknifeclub.org/dirk.html

"The form of the dirk also changed. The thinner blade allowed dirks to now be made from ground-down sword blades, which meant that for the first time the average dirk blade had one or more fullers, the grooves sometimes called "blood grooves."

I can probably find a lot more references for you, if I put some effort into it.
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Dwaref

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Re: More Complex Weapons.
« Reply #67 on: June 10, 2009, 10:13:43 pm »
Quote from: SirHoneyBadger on June 10, 2009, 09:36:52 pm
Swords were cut down all the time, Dwaref.
I never said they weren't.
These were cut down though, and not re-forged. Perfectly good swords just had some of the blade-length removed it seems to me. They never interefered and damaged the forged edge. That would require re-forging. To make a split sword useful would require reforging, unless enough of the tip was left to attach to a hilt. This might not need reforging but just grinding.

Is that what you meant with filings?
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He is somewhat reserved. He prefers to be alone. He doesn't need thrills or risks in life. He is never optimistic or enthusiastic about anything. He has a fertile imagination. He is open-minded to new ideas. He is put off by authority and tradition. He is very straightforward with others. He is very disorganized. He thinks it is incredibly important to strive for excellence. He has very little self-discipline. He takes time when making decisions. He doesn't really care about anything anymore.

SirHoneyBadger

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Re: More Complex Weapons.
« Reply #68 on: June 10, 2009, 10:17:31 pm »
Yes, that's what I was thinking of.

Melting a sword, I don't think you should lose more than 5% of your metal, as long as your FO is competent.

Grinding one into a dagger is probably a lot faster, and possibly even would help with the quality a little, but you'd probably lose >50% metal.
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Dwaref

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Re: More Complex Weapons.
« Reply #69 on: June 10, 2009, 10:43:08 pm »
Hmm. Maybe smiths could like make a ten-yard sword, and then every dwarf brought cutters to grab the length they wanted? :D
It was not uncommon that swords didn't have a pointed tip. They were after all designed for hacking/slashing.
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He is somewhat reserved. He prefers to be alone. He doesn't need thrills or risks in life. He is never optimistic or enthusiastic about anything. He has a fertile imagination. He is open-minded to new ideas. He is put off by authority and tradition. He is very straightforward with others. He is very disorganized. He thinks it is incredibly important to strive for excellence. He has very little self-discipline. He takes time when making decisions. He doesn't really care about anything anymore.

SirHoneyBadger

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Re: More Complex Weapons.
« Reply #70 on: June 10, 2009, 10:47:18 pm »
The problem with that is, the longer the blade, the harder it is to forge everything evenly. Even the very best Japanese swordmakers had a lot of trouble forging long blades consistently perfectly.
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Dwaref

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Re: More Complex Weapons.
« Reply #71 on: June 10, 2009, 10:53:08 pm »
I assume this is mainly because because of esthetics?
Also, nothing prohibits say a dozen dwarves hammering away at it. I'm not talking about masterwork stuff here. It's basically a sword buffet.
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SirHoneyBadger

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Re: More Complex Weapons.
« Reply #72 on: June 11, 2009, 12:07:27 am »
No, not aesthetics. It has to do with achieving the proper temperatures throughout, keeping everything cooling consistently, and also the problem of folding and refolding such a very long blade, without making a mistake, hundreds and hundreds of times (and doing so in a way that results in millions of individual folds, in the most complex blades).

You could maybe make a long bar like that, but I'm pretty sure you'd still run into a ton of problems trying to deal with it, with the tech we have available to us. At the very least, that many dwarfs pounding away at a single white-hot piece of metal is going to cause accidents. Multitudes and multitudes of severe, crippling accidents. Probably fires too. And the quality would just suffer, no matter what you did.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2009, 02:02:05 am by SirHoneyBadger »
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Dwaref

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Re: More Complex Weapons.
« Reply #73 on: June 11, 2009, 02:00:59 am »
You need 20 folds to get a million.

Also yeah, i guess it'd be hard. You can't easily have a hundred-yard forge which can still retain its temperature. Unless you want it cold-forged, then it'd not be so hard.
Anyway, given that the tools have the right dimensions, i think it can be done.
Not saying it's effective or easier.
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SirHoneyBadger

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Re: More Complex Weapons.
« Reply #74 on: June 11, 2009, 02:28:50 am »
Anything can be achieved, provided you're willing to throw enough !!dwarfs!!at it.  :-X
« Last Edit: June 11, 2009, 02:33:59 am by SirHoneyBadger »
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