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[Silverionmox]

Most of these weaponry decorations are pretty good, except for the double bladed axe. IRL, double blades were never used because you always hacked your spine in half on the drawback for a big hit.

Uh...yeah...no. Double-bitted axes (Bipennis) were used all the time. The Varangian Guard--the elite soldiers of the Byzantine Empire--were famous for them. So, no, there was no risk of chopping your spine in half on the back swing. The axe isn't designed that way, and your arm won't move that far back, unless it's atleast extremely dislocated, if not broken.

Also, if the haft is long enough the blade would end up somewhere to the right of your elbow. Good luck swinging it continuously in a combat situation, though.

[Mel_Vixen]

Protip: You dont swing so far back. Its just stupid because the force goes nowhere. If you do a "Zorn hau" your defence is open as hell and you dont go that far back - 20° maybe 30° under the horizontal line at max  but not 90 degree.

edit. A long doublebladed axe is normaly two handed so you wouldnt land in the elbow either if you do such a stupid move.

[Silverionmox]

I know, I was just taking the extreme case. It's not practical as I said.

[SirHoneyBadger]

Well, a big question is what ranges of motion these various weapons allow, so it's a good point to make, Silverionmox.

Hopefully, it's not something our dwarfs will tend to do in battle-not the experienced ones, anyway-but if it's possible to do, there will be green fighters trying to do it, at some point.

[Hakazaba]

It would be nice to have the skill system follow this aswell having a combination of skills relating to grip length, blade types, weight ,etc.

This would create some interesting events as you would be able to have effective weapon changes when your weapon breaks in the heat of battle insted of having to hunt around for another axe of whatever.

You could still have all of the basic skills in regard to fortress mode, however i if these skills directly related to a combination of sub skills then the system wouldn't be so much of a headache.

[SirHoneyBadger]

Not a bad idea, Hakazaba, although I think a broken weapon should always give you some combat negatives--if only because you won't be used to the sudden changes in balance.
 

[Mel_Vixen]

Well maybe a general "improvised Weapon" skill could work here. The calculation could include the originals weapons skill also - say the actual used weapons skill would be for a broken sword: (Sword skill+improvised skill)/2.

With a skill for improvised weapons we can also get nice bar-fights with chairs, broken bottles and cues.

[SirHoneyBadger]

I also think that wrestling skill (or a combination of wresting and martial arts, if we ever get them) should always figure into melee combat, to some degree.

Unarmed combat is probably what most of our dwarfs learn first, anyway, and it teaches a lot about how to move your body. It's no big coincidence that real martial arts forms very often incorporate weapons, but most games (except pure fighting games) tend to ignore that relationship, which I think is a mistake.

Imagine a legendary wrestler armed with a club. If you get inside the club, to where she can't hit you very well with it, she's probably going to be even more dangerous than when she can only club you. She might even drop the club in favor of wringing your neck for you.

So maybe your idea of adding sword skill to improvised skill could be extended to include several different factors, Heph? It's got possibilities.

P.S. Heph, did you get my last PM?

[Orange Drink]

Most of these weaponry decorations are pretty good, except for the double bladed axe. IRL, double blades were never used because you always hacked your spine in half on the drawback for a big hit.

Uh...yeah...no. Not at all. Double-bitted axes (Bipennis, Labrys) were used all the time, since atleast Minoan times (2000s BC). The Varangian Guard--the elite soldiers of the Byzantine Empire--were famous for them. So, no, there was no risk of chopping your spine in half on the back swing. The axe isn't designed that way, and your arm won't move that far back, unless it's atleast extremely dislocated, if not extremely broken or just torn off.

I said they weren't used often by many people around the world, not that they didn't exist. Double bit axes originated in woddcutting, but wasn't really designed for warfare. Sure, the Byzantine elite guard used them, only because they were elites. Training to use such an unwieldy weapon to be effective would take years to even swing properly.

Then there's the swingback. double bitting an axe is basically adding another axe's weight. To cleave the guy in front of you, without any other injuries to yourself, you need extreme precision.

For my example, imagine the power coming from twisting the torso.
You can try to go safe, and turn just a bit. you'll get about an extra 3 or so degrees from lugging such a huge thing. but once you swing towards the guy, the weight would overpower the hitting force, and probably wouldn't do much outside a small dent in the armor and a bruise. It would tear a huge gash into the guy if he had no armor, but who would rush into battle unarmored if you had intent to kill somebody, rather than being a meat shield?

If you wanted to kill the armor clad guy in front of you, you'd need a bigger swing. Now the kinetic energy from the weight would be greater from the velocity of the swing, and you'd get about 30 more degrees. Your torso isn't supposed to turn that much. You could get your wrist or arm broken, or you could kill the guy next to you and behind you. Now with your new ultra-flexible three jointed arm, your arm would flail towards your back, and with the axe still in your hand, you could cleave your back, like I said before.

Also, if the haft is long enough the blade would end up somewhere to the right of your elbow. Good luck swinging it continuously in a combat situation, though.

A good point, but the fact that the shaft will have to be a fair bit bigger to miss your body, it will just make the swing back harder, due to the low leverage between the weight (axe blade) and your hand.

Protip: You dont swing so far back. Its just stupid because the force goes nowhere. If you do a "Zorn hau" your defence is open as hell and you dont go that far back - 20° maybe 30° under the horizontal line at max  but not 90 degree.

edit. A long doublebladed axe is normaly two handed so you wouldnt land in the elbow either if you do such a stupid move.

In the heat of battle, many factors can mess your mind up badly, and you start making bad decisions. You start losing thought of most other things going on around you apart from the things right in front of you.

Away from the double axe talk, but your idea about "Open Defence" is derived from Asian martial arts. I'm talking about massive European army on army combat. Many people were very lightly trained, like how to hold a sword by the right end. That coupled with the confusing heat of battle, and he'd probably not see the fact that your left wide open, or the fact your about to slice him in half.

Well, that should give you some things to think about. And don't just reply that "Double bit axes are dwarfy" or "DF is a fantasy game, therefore the laws of physics don't count".

[SirHoneyBadger]

Well, from many long hours of personal experience, double bitted axes just aren't that hard to use...They're not that much more dangerous than a double-bladed sword, and much less than a flail.

I spent an entire summer chopping wood with two double-bitted wood axes, one two-handed, and one I cut down so it could be used as an improvised hatchet, and I never injured myself even once with the "off-blade", and only twice-and very mildly-with the "live-blade".

Considering that I had a razor edge on them-literally, they were sharp enough to be shaved with, I was also learning to use my dad's new knife sharpening kit that year-and that wood axes are heavier and less well balanced than a battle axe should be--not to mention that I was swinging them for an average of 6 hours a day, which is longer than many battles, I can't say I experienced any evidence of what you're suggesting, Orange Drink. 

You're aware the other blade is there, you compensate for it, and with practice, it just becomes another incorporated element of the tool.

I was able to swing the big axe with one hand, easily enough, fairly accurately, and repeatedly, and I even threw the small axe a few times. It didn't perform very well, but I could stick it in a log at several paces.

I suppose a completely untrained soldier would indeed have difficulty with them, but then, they do require a certain amount of size, strength, and practice to use.

[Orange Drink]

Well, from many long hours of personal experience, double bitted axes just aren't that hard to use...They're not that much more dangerous than a double-bladed sword, and much less than a flail.

I spent an entire summer chopping wood with two double-bitted wood axes, one two-handed, and one I cut down so it could be used as an improvised hatchet, and I never injured myself even once with the "off-blade", and only twice-and very mildly-with the "live-blade".

Considering that I had a razor edge on them-literally, they were sharp enough to be shaved with, I was also learning to use my dad's new knife sharpening kit that year-and that wood axes are heavier and less well balanced than a battle axe should be--not to mention that I was swinging them for an average of 6 hours a day, which is longer than many battles, I can't say I experienced any evidence of what you're suggesting, Orange Drink. 

You're aware the other blade is there, you compensate for it, and with practice, it just becomes another incorporated element of the tool.

I was able to swing the big axe with one hand, easily enough, fairly accurately, and repeatedly, and I even threw the small axe a few times. It didn't perform very well, but I could stick it in a log at several paces.

I suppose a completely untrained soldier would indeed have difficulty with them, but then, they do require a certain amount of size, strength, and practice to use.

Forget it, Your all not the realism whores I remember.

[SirHoneyBadger]

Things don't get much more real than real experience.

Infact, I still have the scars on my left index finger, and across my left ankle, where I *did* hit myself with the axe.

It shaved the skin right off an inch of my finger the one time, and I was lucky the blade bounced off my ankle bone the other time, or I might be missing a foot right now. It still cut all the way to the bone.

Nothing that couldn't have happened in an accident with a sword, though.

[Orange Drink]

But the fact is, I met a medieval weapons enthusiast about a year ago, and did demonstrate that a double axe can hack your back open, because he DID hack his back open in the middle of a medieval mock fight (Yes, thy even do it in Australia) , not to mention his arm was fractured in several places, and tore a nerve in the arm from the force. He even showed me the axe he hacked his back open with. This is where I'm getting all my evidence from.

[SirHoneyBadger]

Well, maybe so, but it sounds like he was doing something dangerous that he shouldn't ever have. I mean, I chopped through entire trees, on a regular basis, so it wasn't like I wasn't applying a lot of force, and I never had any problems.

I can't even imagine how he'd manage to fracture his arm, just by swinging an axe--let alone in several places. The most I could see is possibly dislocating a shoulder or overextending an elbow, if you really didn't know what you were doing and got overexcited.

Although a badly broken arm, as I mentioned above, would go pretty far in explaining how he chopped his back. 

[bjlong]

I can't imagine a way that he hacked his back open, fractured his arm, and tore a nerve without seeing incredibly bad form in swinging an axe. Yes, I've used axes. I've used pickaxes, and a few other axe-like tools, so I also have experience. Swinging to hurt someone requires precision... but only sometimes, and precision is easy to learn.

Open defenses were widely used by European people trained in the sword--Talhoeffer in particular trained in very open defenses. (Look at his sword and buckler plays! They've got their sword over here and their buckler waaaaaaay over there! How do they pull off those blocks? Hell if I know!)

SHB, unarmed combat isn't taught until after knife and stick fighting in the Phillipino martial arts, and a lot carries over. Perhaps there should just be a set of general combat skills, such as "general striking." Like the stuff we're getting in the next version.