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[Muz]

Pulling this off the massive derail on that other thread

I have no problem with it teaching a mindset, but the problem comes with the more concrete things--the moveset that is, if not taught, then used by the teachers.

The UFC is a good judge of stand-up fighting, IMO. The only rules limit certain specific techniques. But, yes, you've hit on two major criticisms of the UFC--the ring is padded, and there are no weapons allowed, giving ground fighting a distinct advantage. As for unarmed, stand-up fighting, I find it pretty realistic.

As for your other arguments, martial artists will generally not claim that one style is superior to another as long as these styles, when put to the test, have fairly even odds against each other. A mindset is not absolutely necessary to win a fight--fast reflexes and an ability to act first and think later are much more necessary, in my experience.

Just for giggles, have you studied any martial arts? I've been in plenty of fights, and sparred a lot with my friends, but haven't studied anything other than fencing (2 years), which gave me an excellent sense of distance. I'm looking into finding a boxing teacher.

Reflexive thinking are part of the mindset Honestly, that's why I'm against most of the softer styles with grapples, most of the time it forces you to think, unless you practice for around 1200 hours or so. Most of the rest is about dodging, reducing injuries, and bringing forward a powerful attack from any angle. A boxing punch is more about how much force you can deal through thick gloves. It knocks people down, looks awesome. But a lot of really strong punches don't even knock people back that much. If you watch the MMA stuff, you'll find that some kicks and punches appear so light that it seems faked, but is an instant KO.

I've taken Tae Kwon Do and Silat Cekak (SE Asian fighting style, the one more specific for combat than art). TKD was a little too artificial for me. I know the kicks are awesome, but it's really hard to get into the right stance in a real fight and the blocks don't work against stronger people. Silat is really good, a lot of real world application for smaller people, but my master didn't seem to grasp its underlying concepts. And I was too lazy to show up every Saturday; hell, I want my Saturdays off

Most of what I stick with comes from a friend of the family law enforcement guy who leads a team for deadly raids and had some experience handling prisoners. Basically, he taught me how to fight. Movesets are fine and all, but it takes too long to master them. He taught me how to handle blows from people twice my size, move my body to use any generic object as a weapon like crowbars and sledgehammers (while keeping balance), effective movement to punch someone from only an inch of movement or none at all. Also things like striking with most parts of the body.

And his training techniques seem so dumb that I'm sure if there was a video, people would laugh at it, but it works. I think it was pretty awesome when a friend once was jokingly punching at my groin and I suddenly found myself twisting to one side to deflect the blow and my palm reflexively went at his throat.

I sort of agree with what Yanlin said in the other thread. Don't think. Just hit. If you have to think, you're doing it wrong. Moves are all good if you can do them without thinking.

[bjlong]

I see, I see. I'd disagree with your statement about grappling--I tend to see it as a familiarity thing. After a while, when grappling, you just sense how to move. Striking can be taught to that level of proficiency much easier, though. I'd recommend you try to find a good wrestling/judo teacher and stick with it for a few months or a year.

As for boxing, yes, the heavy punches they throw are enabled by the gloves, but the structure remains the same when without gloves. You just have to be a bit more cautious.

TKD is somewhat infamous for being inapplicable whenever I talk to people around here. I'd much rather learn Savate or Muy Thai for kicks. However, I'd like to learn some Silat, especially after your recommendation... too bad that all I can find around here are karate and TKD McDojos.

I'd like to see some of those training techniques--if you could find a minute to upload videos of the training, I'd be very grateful. Also, did you ever ask him if he trained under any specific martial art? Or was it just law enforcement training?

Looks like my old fencing instructor runs a boxing/muy thai school. He's a tough one, too, students active in the UFC and other traditional venues. I'll see about finding the money and time to show up for a class of his.

[mainiac]

The trick to beating an amateur isn't to do something clever, it's to wait for them to make a dumb mistake and punish them for it.  Martial arts skill sets are useful for this reason, they reduce the number of dumb mistakes you are going to make.  They also teach you how to exploit those simple mistakes.  Even if you did a punch or kick from TKD and messed it up in excitement, you are still going to be in a balanced stance afterwards due to practice.  Without that training, you would be off balance. 

A big "a-ha" moment for me in wrestling came after a season of wrestling, when I was still a very bad wrestler (I didn't win a single match my first season!).  One of the big, athletic seniors in my highschool tried grabbing me in the middle of a dodgeball game to make me an easy target for the other team.  I was about half his weight but I took him to school with my awesome wrestling skills.  I didn't need any advanced techniques; the wrestling term for what I did is "stepping."  But even though I was still a very bad wrestler, I did have some techniques which were based in good wrestling while this guy (football and crew) did not.  I tried a good technique sloppily while he tried a bad technique sloppily and left himself exposed.  The result was that he grabbed me unexpectedly and half a second later was flat on his face.  I looked like a pretty awesome wrestler for doing a really simple move.

I'm starting to learn Tae Kwon Do from the perspective of having honed my instincts with that highschool wrestling.  From my perspective, it seems very useful.  If you were going up against someone who knows what they are doing, they could neutralize all that Tae Kwon Do with grappling, as happens in MMA.  But in a typical fight, Tae Kwon Do would be a huge advantage.  If I take a punch at you with Tae Kwon Do, hit or miss, I'm still on balance.  You take a punch at me, I am now much better equiped to block it and counter punch.

[Tormy]

If you are really into self defense, you should practice kempo/sambo/krav-maga. These "martial arts" are excellent.

[Cthulhu]

I'm far too weak to take anyone in a straight fight.  If someone's attacking me, I'm going for the eyes and the groin.

[Yanlin]

I'm far too weak to take anyone in a straight fight.  If someone's attacking me, I'm going for the eyes and the groin.

That's Krav Maga.

[Tormy]

I'm far too weak to take anyone in a straight fight.  If someone's attacking me, I'm going for the eyes and the groin.

That's Krav Maga.

Indeed..
Some more infos about Krav-Maga:
"Krav Maga trains combatants for situations where losing would be potentially fatal. Its attack and defense maneuvers aim to neutralize the threat and facilitate rapid and safe escape. These include a variety of fast and fluid crippling attacks to vulnerable body parts through various efficient and often brutal strikes. The improvised use of any available aids is encouraged - maximizing personal safety in a fight is emphasized."

[bjlong]

If you are really into self defense, you should practice kempo/sambo/krav-maga. These "martial arts" are excellent.

We just came off of a huge discussion about how I was wary of Krav Maga and would have to see a good teacher to get behind it at all. You can find it in the shooting a guy thread. That said, do you know of any teachers I could contact? Perhaps they could answer some questions and put me in touch with a good teacher in my area.

As for Kempo and Sambo, I'm lost. Could you sum up the styles? (ie: savate is a very energetic, more practical version of kickboxing performed at a further distance.)

I'm far too weak to take anyone in a straight fight.  If someone's attacking me, I'm going for the eyes and the groin.

Martial arts are all about reducing the need for strength by using good technique and strategy. I'd recommend you try to find a good school in your area, and try it for a few months.

[Yanlin]

Martial arts say: Strength does not matter.

Science says: Strength is not all there is to it, but it sure helps!

[DJ]

Any martial art that doesn't teach you how to use billiard cues, billiard balls, beer bottles and assorted furniture is inapplicable in real life.

Anyway, here's my advice on fighting: if there's more of them, run. If there's more of you, one grapples an opponent while another sneaks up behind and hits him with something heavy in the back of the skull. If it's one on one, start talking (apologizing and stuff), and when you get close enough, sucker-punch him mid-sentence and keep punching so he can't regain his balance.

[Hawkfrost]

Anyway, here's my advice on fighting: if there's more of them, run. If there's more of you, one grapples an opponent while another sneaks up behind and hits him with something heavy in the back of the skull. If it's one on one, start talking (apologizing and stuff), and when you get close enough, sucker-punch him mid-sentence and keep punching so he can't regain his balance.

That's not my style, I tend to rush forward, slip to the side, trip them and then slam them into the ground.
Once I have them down I either punch them repeatedly in the face or drive a knee into their belly and drop an elbow into their nose.

But of course, I can improvise.

[sonerohi]

I find that while  the black-belt I acheived in kempo-karate (don't ask me to hash it out, just what it was called) isn't very useful, the instincts I developed are. The blocks never work, and I've only ever found use for about 1/3rd of the kicks and punches, but I have a razor edge between calm and flipping shit. I can't really joke around too easily with my friends because if I don't pay attention and one of them surprises me and tries to hit me, I'll instinctively move to minimize the impact and start work on their legs.

Which is my fighting style. Knees and shins are vulnerable, and it's easy to take someone down. Once their down, just straddle them and start raining down blows on the chest. If they struggle, stand up just a little and then flop down on their stomach.

[Gorjo MacGrymm]

Any martial art requires long long long hours of practive and forceful opposition training (read near full contact sparring - like they used to do in karate in the US).  Without that, no martial art is useful.  You can say "i'm going for the groin and eyes!" but your just thinking about a fight instead of fighting it.  You simply take whatever target is available without trying to force a shot at a specific body part.  You can win a fight with a finger hold.

The most dangerous thing a martial art sudent can do is think they know how to fight.  If/When a student receives a blackbelt, it merely means "your not a complete fucking idiot in this style anymore."

maniacs "a-ha" moment came about due to repetition and body memory.  He acted without thought because by then he instictively understood how to move himself for best defense, because wrestling practice actually requries using the moves daily.  He had day in and day out performed in near full force against other wrestlers, therefore thought was no longer necessary about how to perform the correct movement.  Practice like this is the only way to truly learn.  It is learned through long hours of practice and experience.  The problem with most martial arts (at least where I live) is that very few of them actually allow application of the art (fucking liability lawyers!!!!!!!!!) in practice.  This makes it useless.  You can have the prettiest back spin kick in history.  If you havent tried in a real world application, its useless. 

Krav Maga does rule.
Jeet Kun Do does also, since it applies the idea of no forms, simply reacting to the situation.


Also, never never never discount a boxer.  He/She has spent 1000's of hours in a ring, perfecting their ability to repeatedly hit you in the face, against opponents attemting to do the same thing.  The moment when you think "i will go for his groin" is the moment before you "come to" from a ko, or worse.

"Krav Maga trains combatants for situations where losing would be potentially fatal.

Any martial art that doesnt teach this is a waste of time.  Every fight should be considered life and death.  The reasoning of your opponent is unknowable.  You simply must remove from them the ability to cause you harm.  To do anyting less is ridiculous.  OTOH, you do have a moral obligation to avoid causing undue harm to others.  If you can end a fight without severely injuring your opponent (or worse), then you should do so as long as you believe the opponent will not continue to be a threat in the future.

Avoiding the fight in the first place is still the best option, if available.

oh, BTW, just for grins, I have received training in:
Karate, TKD, Shaolin Kung Fu, Chung Moo Do ( a collection of 8 other arts, but not really that good), junior high and highschool wrestling, US Army self defense.  I tried boxing but only got hit alot.  My handspeed isnt exceptional, sadly.

@hawkfrost - I hope I am wrong, but I perceive a bad day in your future.

[sonerohi]

I don't 'think' I know how to fight, I demonstrate it every time someone on the wrestling or football teams tries to give me shit and boss me around. One kid was going around playing that stupid game where you try to flick someone in the groin. I'd been talking to someone when he tried it on me and instead of thinking "ugh, this game sucks", I didnt think at all. My brain auto-sent Oh Shit signals all over my body. I just swung my foot around, so I went from parallel with him to perpendicular with him, reached in with my close hand and grabbed his shoulder, used my back arm to grab his stomach, kneed him in the groin and started elbowing his stomach. I wasn't even fully aware of doing it. Just kind of happened and the whole time I was still thinking up a witty retort for the conversation I was in.

[Hawkfrost]

@hawkfrost - I hope I am wrong, but I perceive a bad day in your future.

I don't doubt it, but I hope most of my fights are behind me.

As a (younger) kid(7-14) I used to fight, every single day, multiple times.
I never lost, but I never got cocky about it either.
In every fight you should consider your opponent as good as a fighter as you.

Hell, when I was a grade 4 I could already take on the grade 8s, just because I could tell what the were going to do, and react accordingly.

Fighting is a state of mind and a training of the muscles to react properly and quickly, not a set of moves memorized.
If you are dependent on having to remember a move in the middle of a fight, that pause, however small, will end you.