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[SirHoneyBadger]

Neonivek: Well, yeah, that part is a problem, but there could be some randomness or stattiness (or both) applied to the situation, to mimic eureka moments.

Possibly even something akin to a very minor artifact event?

It might work out that you'd order your dwarf to make yet another shortsword, but find that he's working on a mysterious project instead, and you'd end up with a swordbreaker, or a kukri. Or maybe he'd just do some projects on his own (break) time.

I'm pretty confident that something agreeable could be worked out (probably not pleasing everyone, but atleast an improvement over what we have right now).

CobaltKobald: I like your idea of reverse engineering. I think it's got some possibilities. Maybe the ability to capture weapons your dwarfs have never seen before, and study them, would help alleviate some of the concerns being expressed.

[Pilsu]

Unlocking tech is ridiculously unrealistic and videogamey

[bjlong]

Pilsu, this isn't unlocking tech as much as someone learning how to forge an already-existing version of a weapon.

SHB, another consideration would be feedback from military dwarfs. Urist McSword wants a sword that does x, y, and z. He goes and talks to Urist McForge, who forges a nasty prototype (eg, XXFlambergeXX). Urist McSword plays with it a while, then goes back and talks to Urist McForge. After a few cycles, this turns out a good Flamberge. The only problem is the wasted material, and the fact that the player might not want this to happen. Maybe it would only use plentiful material with a low quality modifier, if Urist McForger is only one out of a group of forgers, and if there is a lot of charcoal.

[SirHoneyBadger]

Yeah, I could see that happening, bjlong. Maybe some dwarfs have a personality that causes them to always want the next best thing--economically spurring creativity, in the process of trying to get those dwarfs' business.

[eerr]

why not combine the concept of "tech" and artifacts.

if a metalworker meets brilliance check when he creates an artifact, He may instead create new schematics (and a masterpiece/prototype of the item)

If a mason meets a toughness check, he may instead try to build 10x masterpiece items(no insanity for failure, just gives xp for each built).

if a carpenter meets a strength check, he can makes one of the current items, but "better"( a 40x bin on wheels?)

if a weaver meets a dexterity check, he weaves a harder pattern, learning it as a new skill(at dabbling level).

if a stone carver meets an, uh,  perception check, he produces a certain stone item from  a specific stone, at quadruple value.




All of these workers require a new workshop, a mastershop dedicated to them.

[SirHoneyBadger]

The idea of artifact "blueprints" applied to this and other types of items is a pretty popular one. I'm fine with it, although I don't know how well it would work in practice (I'd really want to see it in action before I got too excited about it), and in a case like this, it might be overly complicated, where a simpler (if not unrelated) system might suffice.

[Blargityblarg]

I reckon it should go something like the random quality system already implemented- a dabbler has the chance to produce a masterwork, but it's small to the point of ridicule.

In this system, replace quality with type, and have quality as levels WITHIN type.

So basically, you tell your proficient weaponsmith to make ten axes. He turns out four hatchets, three battleaxes, a halberd, a greataxe and a war axe, similarly to how he'd turn out a bunch of axes and maybe a couple -axes-, with a +axe+ thrown in for flavour. Same thing could happen for pretty much all weapons- spears going from , say, shaft, through spear, up to ranseur, swords going from kinda sharp club to flamberge.

Also, qualities would remain: say a roll of 1-20 produces a shortsword, a roll of 20 would produce a masterwork shortsword, etc, with rolls higher than twenty going into different types of swords, all further graded into qualities.

[Pilsu]

Making random axes would be really annoying

[SirHoneyBadger]

Making random axes would be really annoying

I gotta agree with that. Once you can make a specific kind of axe, you should be able to order it specifically, and then get whatever quality you can, based on the smith's skill level.

It should never be random, unless it's something random you're buying off the caravan--even then, you ought to be told what you're buying, before you put your money down.

[eerr]

Unlocking tech is ridiculously unrealistic and videogamey

Is learning videogamy?
or just the excessive leaps of knowledge.

[Pilsu]

Is learning videogamy?

Randomly learning to make a halberd just because you churned out some hatchets? Definitely. Not even World of Warcraft falls prey to that

Personally I think you shouldn't be able to do any forging without proper apprenticeship to begin with but that's a matter for another thread

[Neonivek]

I discovered a problem with this

A lot of weapons are based around actually knowing how to fight and modifying weapons according to their skills. (Hense why a LOT of weapons are based off of farming impliments)

Someone with a lot of weapon making ability but no combat skills would likely make enhanced versions of weapons they already know how to make.

It would be interesting to see World Famos Combat experts invent weapons

[jaked122]

How would legendary skills achieved through artifact creation affect this?

I believe that is how the advanced weapons would be invented.

[SirHoneyBadger]

I discovered a problem with this

A lot of weapons are based around actually knowing how to fight and modifying weapons according to their skills. (Hense why a LOT of weapons are based off of farming impliments)

Someone with a lot of weapon making ability but no combat skills would likely make enhanced versions of weapons they already know how to make.

It would be interesting to see World Famos Combat experts invent weapons

I don't see a problem with that, although maybe there's an opportunity for this to also have a relationship with weapon skills: Somebody very knowledgeable about fighting with axes, might sit down to make a better battleaxe, while inventers who were less knowledgeable about actually fighting, might indeed base weapon designs on farming tools.

Is learning videogamy?

Randomly learning to make a halberd just because you churned out some hatchets? Definitely. Not even World of Warcraft falls prey to that

Pilsu: Making a halberd, ofcourse, wouldn't be based on simply "churning out hatchets". There'd be a lot more thought put into it. A halberd functions not only as an axe, but also as a fairly complex polearm. Somebody learning to make a halberd might first learn to make not only axes (and battle axes at that), but spears, and some more primitive polearms, like the pike.

The only thing "random" about it might be the exact weapon you'd come up with, at which point in time, and there'd be choices to make that could strongly influence that element of randomness.

[Blargityblarg]

I'd have to disagree with random weapons being bad- If they're all essentiall the same, with minor differences in weight and/or damage, consider the higher-tier weapons to be a 'bonus.'