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[LegoLord]

Well, look at it this way.  He demands your wallet.  You decline and fight back, you are far more likely to die than if you comply.  If you comply, you have a higher chance of being able to survive.  Plus, lone criminals don't normally think that far ahead of the "threaten guy cornered in an alley" step.

[Strife26]

Do statistics show that?
If memory from my debating is right, more than survey shows that resistence is pretty safe, all things told. Mind you, I preface my searches for debate information with NRA.

[LegoLord]

If a guy has a gun and you have a gun, and he's already got it out and you try to pull it out, just what do you think will happen?

[Strife26]

Throw the wallet on the ground, then blast him when he picks it up.

[bjlong]

Yeah... But... You know... There's a ton of stupid and horrible parents out there producing these brats.

Not to be abrasive, but this means that everyone with a bit of time and good moral sense should be looking for these "brats" to drag them out of the muck they're in, kicking and screaming, if need be.

It's called Krav Maga. Best damn martial art in the world. Look it up. The best thing about it? It is 100% compatible with all other martial arts. How? It has no set moves. Just a psychological mindset. The "No quarter" mindset. If you're defending yourself, the other guy should NEVER have the ability to even THINK about attacking you again.

I've seen several Krav Maga demos, and they don't impress me as much as, say, watching Boxing or Wrestling. The demo givers had a few simple disarms, which was good, but didn't follow up well. The link I gave had some notes on that. Not to say that this couldn't be a perfectly valid martial art. I just don't see it in my exposure. I'm sure a good teacher could convince me otherwise--if you know of one, put me in touch.

I'm not sure about your "no set moves" concept. Do you mean that they have no closed syllabus, or that they have no actual taught moveset? Or something else entirely?

As for martial arts, I'd like to train in boxing, stand-up wrestling, historical western martial arts, and run some knifing scenarios.

Throw the wallet on the ground, then blast him when he picks it up.

I don't think that juries would be too happy about that. Probably better to run, if you have the possibility. Just a note.

[Strife26]

I doubt that any jury would convict me for that. I probably wouldn't even be charged.

[Idiom]

While I do agree it is VERY easy to get caught up in the heat of things when your life and guns are involved, he DID go too far technically in my opinion, but the intruder was already dead when he set foot in the building.

He has the right to "deadly force", as quoted from the law, which would involve killing the guy. I don't see what exactly was illegal when looking at the law word for word there. His requirement was to feel threatened:

But he COULD have not killed the guy, right? He COULD have saved him. He COULD have invited him to tea and crumpets. But tea and crumpets is  in the backseat when the instincts kicks in to KILL. Honestly. You'd have to find it unreasonable that after being being threatened for your life, your job, your hard work, he shouldn't be jumpy and trigger happy after shooting someone in the head. Just listen to the Defense Department guy in the article that vouches for him.

Secondly, I would have assumed after putting a bullet through someone's head that when he's on the floor bleeding out and unmoving, that he's dead. You'd have to find it unreasonable that he wouldn't think the kid was already a corpse, while full of adrenaline.

Thirdly, he saved the kid's family a lot of medical bills. If he were to survive the head wound at all.

[eerr]

I know many people sympathize with him, but explain why he shot a bleeding unconscious man.

[Agdune]

He has the right to "deadly force", as quoted from the law, which would involve killing the guy. I don't see what exactly was illegal when looking at the law word for word there. His requirement was to feel threatened:

...

Secondly, I would have assumed after putting a bullet through someone's head that when he's on the floor bleeding out and unmoving, that he's dead. You'd have to find it unreasonable that he wouldn't think the kid was already a corpse, while full of adrenaline.

Firstly, the condition is that in order to lawfully use deadly force, you have to currently BE threatened in a manner that makes you certain you're in danger of losing your life. Not threatened 5 minutes ago. Also, shooting human corpses for no or poor reasons is illegal. Mutilation and all that. If he thought the guy was dead, he'd be in less trouble but still get charged with something and be in the wrong, morally speaking.

I'll agree that it's easy to get caught up in adrenaline and take things too far, I've been caught in a position where I've been afraid for my life (Thanks child services! Putting a lone support worker in a house with a pair of teenagers fresh out of an under-18s prison without any self defence training. That was great fun.) so can sympathise with someone who managed to get the upper hand and then turn on their attackers. What I can't condone however, is letting the victim-turned-aggressor off without penalty for letting themselves lose control and perform acts that are not needed for their own immediate protection. That didn't happen in this case, the guy isn't being charged for the fun of it, but I'm speaking in a general sense. Defence is justified, turning into attack is not (even though I don't like calling lethal force 'defence', heh).

[Yanlin]

It's called Krav Maga. Best damn martial art in the world. Look it up. The best thing about it? It is 100% compatible with all other martial arts. How? It has no set moves. Just a psychological mindset. The "No quarter" mindset. If you're defending yourself, the other guy should NEVER have the ability to even THINK about attacking you again.

I've seen several Krav Maga demos, and they don't impress me as much as, say, watching Boxing or Wrestling. The demo givers had a few simple disarms, which was good, but didn't follow up well. The link I gave had some notes on that. Not to say that this couldn't be a perfectly valid martial art. I just don't see it in my exposure. I'm sure a good teacher could convince me otherwise--if you know of one, put me in touch.

I'm not sure about your "no set moves" concept. Do you mean that they have no closed syllabus, or that they have no actual taught moveset? Or something else entirely?

As for martial arts, I'd like to train in boxing, stand-up wrestling, historical western martial arts, and run some knifing scenarios.

How is that different from other martial arts demos? You have an asshole trying to make money by impressing you with set moves. REAL Krav Maga is what they teach in the IDF. The Israeli army.

There, you get to learn adaptive combat and improved weapon use. In Israel, the use of weapons is legal in self defense. Seriously. If you grab a chair and defend yourself with it, it's self defense.

By no set moves, I mean there are no specific motions or styles. It's just a mentality. Like Parkour is just a mentality/philosophy for how you use free running.

It's not WHAT you do. It's HOW you do it. The key word? No quarter. Okay, two words. Sue me.

No quarter pretty much means no mercy. Disarming is just the first step. But the key goal is making the gun point away from you or anyone else for as little as one second. During that time, you can easily daze him and stun him. While he's stunned, just disarm the weapon normally whilst still attacking a region like his face or his crotch.

Back to self defense law, IIRC, dirty fighting is not illegal if used in self defense. You come charging at me and I kill all your potential future children? You're guilty of assault and I'm a free man. (This is referring to Israel. I have no idea how pansy the self defense laws in the USA are.)

Back to Krav Maga. Krav Maga literally means "Contact combat" in Hebrew. But a proper translation would be "Close combat"

The mentality is this: There's a guy there and he's attacking me. How can I disarm him in the fastest and most painful way possible, then escape while he is unable to chase me or gun me down?

The answer? Use a gun And if that don't work? Use more gun.
-Engineer.

The real answer? Cave his face in, smash his nads and break his weapon hand. All within 3 seconds or less.

"But Yanlin! I'm a pussyfist! I don't like fighting!"

Well then. You stun him. A quick jab to the back of the head or the neck, maybe a kick in the balls while shunting away his weapon arm and if he has a gun, stealing the actual gun so he can't shoot you with it. Or "reloading" the gun by making the gun drop the magazine. Most pistols allow you to do that. By the time he finishes picking it up and reloading, you'll be far away.

Now back to the mentality. In Krav Maga, you can utilize ANY martial art. But the "default" form of Krav Maga is your natural human instinct. YOU know where humans are weak. ATTACK THOSE WEAK SPOTS! For massive damage! Turn him into a giant enemy crab!

You don't need to know any complex movements as long as he doesn't!

[Muz]

Ugh, boxing and wrestling are more for showing off than actual self defense. Most disarms don't even work properly in an actual situation, too choreographed. There was one martial arts class showed some snarky policeman who had "extensive knife disarming drills" to fight a new classmate who had no training at all in fighting. She knocked him down and jabbed him in the throat twice and once in the groin with the marker.

Boxing is good for learning do deal heavy force, but not much use in fighting an armed person. Heh, my father got kicked out of taekwondo class because he knocked down his black belt teacher with a boxing punch.

Krav Maga is good for just that reason. The martial arts that work are very unimpressive in demonstrations. They're not at all choreographed. It doesn't say "keep your hand high when blocking" or some such thing, which doesn't work at all in real battle.

And yes, any proper Krav Maga teacher will tell you that it is incredibly stupid for you to try to grab someone's gun or even a knife, even with proper practice. Videos and TV make it look cool, but you only know how likely it is to fail after you practice someone wielding a gun like a real attacker would. Often, their face is nowhere near close enough to your fist to be caved in, and seeing your fist near his face would make him pull the trigger immediately in defense.

[bjlong]

Let me say first that by demos I mean the teacher gets up and demonstrates a few moves, and then does some fancier, more choreographed stuff. The demonstrations from Krav Maga that I've seen have excellent disarms, but their follow through, that is, the punches and kicks that they stop short, have very little merit to them--they simply don't have the footwork and body positioning that makes an effective strike. That said, I've seen impressive demos--both in grappling arts and in striking arts--and have seen demos that are all flash, no substance. The key is looking at what the rest of the body does during a strike or throw.

Boxing and wrestling were two of the main contenders in the UFC, simply because they are that effective. Muy Thai, which is the main striking art of the UFC, had to completely revamp its fighting to include western Boxing, after seeing it in use. Western Wrestling and Judo are the two stand-up grappling arts that still contend in the UFC. I don't expect these to get me everywhere, but they seem to get a lot of people pretty far.

I'm still not sure what exactly Krav Maga teaches. A mindset? Without a set of moves? That's not a martial art, that's just thinking. A mindset with "natural movements?" That's going to be vastly inferior to someone who learns how to strike and throw, then learns a little of the mindset. If you could put me in touch with a teacher, I could start asking about schools in my area, so I can find out more about this. Arguing with someone over a message board about fighting is like ameobas trying to talk about what sex feels like.

[Muz]

Krav Maga isn't really the only style to teach a mindset. I know another system which doesn't really have a name, none of the 'moves' have names, they just call everything "this" and "that", because they can't find a way to describe how it works. But it does

The UFC is not a good system to judge real-life fighting. There are plenty of rules, like no weapons, no punching people in the throat, no stomping on their groin or ripping it off with your teeth. Fights are on a mat - nothing near the concrete floor with fire hydrants, broken glass and obstacles scattered everywhere. Ground fighting doesn't work nearly as well as it does in the ring.

Anyway, it's pretty much a rule in every fighting style not to criticize other martial arts. Sort of like religion. All martial arts masters can find a way to fight more effectively.. it's like how a person who studies masters physics without learning math will eventually invent calculus on their own. The fighting mindset thing is like that calculus, it's good if you learn it first, you'll learn slower, but understand more effectively if you learn it later, and you'll figure it out anyway, if you dedicate 40 years of your life to it.

[bjlong]

I have no problem with it teaching a mindset, but the problem comes with the more concrete things--the moveset that is, if not taught, then used by the teachers.

The UFC is a good judge of stand-up fighting, IMO. The only rules limit certain specific techniques. But, yes, you've hit on two major criticisms of the UFC--the ring is padded, and there are no weapons allowed, giving ground fighting a distinct advantage. As for unarmed, stand-up fighting, I find it pretty realistic.

As for your other arguments, martial artists will generally not claim that one style is superior to another as long as these styles, when put to the test, have fairly even odds against each other. A mindset is not absolutely necessary to win a fight--fast reflexes and an ability to act first and think later are much more necessary, in my experience.

Just for giggles, have you studied any martial arts? I've been in plenty of fights, and sparred a lot with my friends, but haven't studied anything other than fencing (2 years), which gave me an excellent sense of distance. I'm looking into finding a boxing teacher.

[Zangi]

The guy killing over robbery is the idiot, especially if the company being robbed has insurance, which most do.  Not the desperate guy trying to survive.

Maybe its me... but this sort of sentiment... is... unappealing. 

"I have insurance, here, take everything.  I don't lose anything, but my rates will go up.  Hell, it'll go up anyways if you don't take anything and I report this."

It does not change the fact that you are being threatened and robbed in the first place.  What justice is there when the criminal is able to walk off and spend your money away before being caught?  If the thief was already doing financially poorly, how can you expect this person to be able to pay anything back? 

What guarantee is there that this criminal will be caught in the first place?  In this time... what with everything cops already deal with and budget cuts... Small time robbery is going to be a low issue unless you have a 'friend' who would push your issue up in priority and they'd still need a viable description to work with...  Or a cop gets lucky... by Jah.. you read about so many fools getting caught cause of 'routine' traffic stops in the news...

When the insurance company loses, everyone else, especially the victim of the robbery gets a rate increase.  In effect, nobody wins, except for maybe the insurance company who uses your statistic as justification for rate increases in your 'categories'.

As I see it, a burden on society.

I know many people sympathize with him, but explain why he shot a bleeding unconscious man.

I don't believe anyone other then that man can explain tell what is going on in his mind.  Noone other then him could answer for himself.


@Self-defense and other finer points of implementing it:

I see people frequently talk/debate about this in threads like this, maybe you folks could actually make a thread dedicated to it?