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[flabort]

i was thinking, about how people do hermit challenges, or edit the init to have MORE dwarves.

well, my proposal is about how you could change the number of starting dwarves on the embark screen, for a possible cost. like, say, a dwarf is worth about 250 points, so a hermit chalenge would yield 1500 extra points to get stuff with, but the skill limiters would keep him... unable to use it all?

anyways, the current 10 skill allocations per dwarf would make it more ballanced to keep multiple dwarves, but not too many... if you bring so many you can only afford 2 plump helmet spawn and a single pick, that's a bit over board.

however, as another cost, bringing more/less dwarves would moddify the immagrants, so bringing less dwarves would make them more frequent, but less dwarves per wave, and more embark dwarves would make immagrants innfrequent, but come in massive waves.


probably gonna get flamed for this, just something i thought of while washing some dishes...
boredom can do that to you, you know?

[sweitx]

This sounds like a nice idea.  However, I would suggest each dwarf add the the embark value (allowing for more stuff).
For example:
Base value = 100
Each dwarf = 200

So for 7 dwarf, you have 100 + 7*200 = 1500.
So for 1 dwarf, you have 100 + 200 = 300.

The idea here is that each dwarf can carry a certain amount item with them, so more dwarf = more capacity and resources.

Or just have the ability to seperate the two (number of dwarf and value).

[irmo]

This sounds like a nice idea.  However, I would suggest each dwarf add the the embark value (allowing for more stuff).
For example:
Base value = 100
Each dwarf = 200

So for 7 dwarf, you have 100 + 7*200 = 1500.
So for 1 dwarf, you have 100 + 200 = 300.

Uh, so you can have an unlimited number of dwarves, which allows an unlimited amount of stuff? A little unbalanced.

[Mephansteras]

Yes, that would be unbalanced. But this is a single-player game, and if the whole purpose of the fortress is to build a giant Mega-Project, who cares if it's unbalanced? All that does is remove the years of waiting until you have the dwarfpower and resources to start the megaproject.

I think having settings to change the starting number of dwarves would be great. However, I'd like to see it as an option when you Embark, not in the init file. That way you don't have to fiddle with the init every time you want to create a new fortress.

[irmo]

Yes, that would be unbalanced. But this is a single-player game, and if the whole purpose of the fortress is to build a giant Mega-Project, who cares if it's unbalanced? All that does is remove the years of waiting until you have the dwarfpower and resources to start the megaproject.

And if the purpose of the fortress is to take a balanced starting configuration to a hostile site and try to survive, tough shit. There is no balanced starting configuration, just an infinite sliding scale of "how much do you want to cheat?"

If you don't even want to have to manage the resources to build your mega-project, you might as well draw it on graph paper.

[Servant Corps]

If you have 100 drawves, how can you expect to herd them all at once? Those 100 drawves will more than likely form into great mega-groups and wage war with each other over the richness of the territory.

[Mephansteras]

And if the purpose of the fortress is to take a balanced starting configuration to a hostile site and try to survive, tough shit. There is no balanced starting configuration, just an infinite sliding scale of "how much do you want to cheat?"

Not quite sure what you mean there. If the default setting on the sliding scale is identical to the current starting set-up, then I don't see why there are any issues. If people want an extra challenge, they can bring fewer dwarves and fewer resources. If they want less of a challenge (or different challenges, as SC brings up), they can bring more dwarves and resources. Nothing says it has to be set up make you always cheating.

[irmo]

Not quite sure what you mean there. If the default setting on the sliding scale is identical to the current starting set-up, then I don't see why there are any issues. If people want an extra challenge, they can bring fewer dwarves and fewer resources. If they want less of a challenge (or different challenges, as SC brings up), they can bring more dwarves and resources. Nothing says it has to be set up make you always cheating.

Two things:

1. Embark-screen decisions about skills and gear are strategic decisions. Adjusting the level of challenge should be separate from choosing a strategy to meet the challenge.

2. The difference between playing the game as it's been designed, tested, and balanced and playing the game in some other mode should be clearly marked. "Cheating, but only a little bit" is the death of challenge. Specifically, if you want a true "wizard mode" where you can bring an unlimited amount of stuff and as many dwarves as your framerate will tolerate, that should be a switch that you explicitly turn on. (It would be useful for testing, if nothing else.)

[Mephansteras]

Not quite sure what you mean there. If the default setting on the sliding scale is identical to the current starting set-up, then I don't see why there are any issues. If people want an extra challenge, they can bring fewer dwarves and fewer resources. If they want less of a challenge (or different challenges, as SC brings up), they can bring more dwarves and resources. Nothing says it has to be set up make you always cheating.

Two things:

1. Embark-screen decisions about skills and gear are strategic decisions. Adjusting the level of challenge should be separate from choosing a strategy to meet the challenge.

2. The difference between playing the game as it's been designed, tested, and balanced and playing the game in some other mode should be clearly marked. "Cheating, but only a little bit" is the death of challenge. Specifically, if you want a true "wizard mode" where you can bring an unlimited amount of stuff and as many dwarves as your framerate will tolerate, that should be a switch that you explicitly turn on. (It would be useful for testing, if nothing else.)

For #1, I agree conceptually. But I see no reason why there couldn't be a screen in between the "Select a location" step and the "Set up your dwarves" step that lets you determine the number of dwarves you take. Resources could be set by the player, by the number of dwarves, or whatever other method Toady likes.

Personally, I like the idea of being able to say "This Fortress is being constructed in order to create a giant wall blocking off this Canyon and defending the area from rampaging Goblins". In that scenario, it makes perfect sense to bring lots of dwarves and materials to build the wall as quickly as possible. After all, that much starting wealth should trigger goblin attacks in the first year, which could still be quite challenging.

Simply having Dwarves and Resources doesn't meant the game won't have challenges. It just gives you different challenges.

And if you really think there should be a warning saying "If you change off of the default the game balance could change, making things easier or more difficult", then fine. Whatever. But it's a single player game. And after you've built your 20th fort from the ground up, it's not unreasonable to want to skip the first 2 or 3 years of fortress build-up just so you can make that mega-construction you've dreamed up.

You can say it's cheating, but I say it's cutting out a part of the game I've done dozens of times before that has no bearing on my goals for my 25th fort.

[Tenebrais]

Hmm.

How about, just after choosing "Prepare for your journey carefully", you get presented with a new screen:

DWARVES: One/Low/Standard/High/Highest
RESOURCES: None/Low/Standard/High Highest

And choosing from each category gives you 1, 3, 7, 20 or 50 dwarves and 0, 1030, 2060, 3090 or 4120 points to spend. The "Standard" label makes it a definite "this is what you should be doing" tag so it doesn't feel like only cheating a little bit.

[Sowelu]

Nah.  Nobody ever uses "standard".  Most RTSes online, if they give you a choice, people like to set them to the highest (because it's 'mose fun') then they whine when it's unbalanced for those resource levels.  If you want to give people a way to shoot themselves in the foot, make them dig in the raws for it.

[Impaler[WrG]]

People have long speculated on the possibility of starting with a different number of embark points (some have even hacked a way of doing it) and it's almost guaranteed to be on option at some point.  Making individual dwarfs 'purchasable' with points would be an interesting an efficient way to allow group size the vary without having a separate parameter for it.

In any case their should be a trade-off between group size & other stuff just as currently exists between skills and items.  This adds flexibility and greater strategic choice to all embarks as players aren't locked into a group of 7 and can go quite a bit higher or lower for the novelty and excitement that would bring.  A player desiring a larger group the normal embark point total allows just allocates more embark points and buys more dwarves with them. 

In fact a series of pre-designed 'difficulty level' embark options could be available to the player.  These would be much like Embark templates but would contain just a dwarf count and the remaining points ready to be allocated.  It would be a little bit like choosing your Profession at the start of Oregon Trail and having different amounts of money to spend as a result.  A "Meager" start might be only 4 dwarfs and half the normal points and a "Substantial" start would be 12 dwarfs and several time normal starting points.  In all cases you could exchange dwarves and points to accommodate your personal preference, the predefined number is just a recommendation.  All the difficulty levels would be editable so you can create new ones beyond the normal range.

In Oregon Trail their was an end-game balance effect that multiplied the final score of those that start with less money.  A similar balancing effect could be achieved by making the fortress that starts with more resources have a different relationship with the Mountain homes.  A well funded and well equipped expedition would be expected to more quickly yield profit for its financial backers, the yearly caravan would expect to be Given 'tribute'.  The larger expedition might also face greater danger and could attract thieves and raiders very quickly.  Ware as a smaller expedition might instead receive assistance from its Mountain Home the first few years and would not even be discovered by its enemies for long time.  All these factors would be in the definition of the difficulty level and would be adjustable as well.

[Pilsu]

It'd be nice to be able to buy up to 10 dwarves on embark. There definitely should be a cost though

As for hermit mode, sounds like something for adventure mode once you can build and dig

[Fetus4188]

I think putting # of dwarves and # of embark points (and the same for reclaim) into the init would be the best way to go.  It allows the player to choose for himself how he wants to play, which is the whole point of Dwarf Fortress.  He can roleplay a poor, large band of dwarves on their way to form a cult enclave or a band of the king's best endowed with considerable resources to found an outpost for the empire.

[Deimos56]

I prefer the original idea of buying or selling extra dwarves to add to your expedition through the use of points. Gives you flexibility without making it possible for things to be too easy.