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[numerobis]

It would be nice if, in the way mandate-restricted items are dealt with now, the trade depot would restrict items that violate the elves' ethical rules.  I don't have great joy about checking whether the right sock was decorated "ethically" with cloth or "unethically" with turtle shell.  And, I constantly screw up with the "giant cave spider c" being "chitin" rather than "cap."

Perhaps this is something that should be discovered, and would only come into play only when you have a somewhat-trained diplomat (whatever skill is appropriate -- negotiation or whatever), or an experience of ticking off a previous elven caravan.

[oops, wrong sub-forum; if an admin cares, this belongs in 'suggestions']

[ January 11, 2008: Message edited by: benoit.hudson ]

[Impaler[WrG]]

*It's Alive!, it's Alive*

I've Necroed this thread as it perfectly matches the rant/suggestion I wanted to make.

The weird elven wood 'kosher' rules are IMHO dumb but if their something Toady wants in the game then so be it but FOR THE LOVE OF GOD FIX THE F***** TRADE INTERFACE!  Their is no way other then mind numbing tediousness to keep from accidentally offering forbidden items.  A 'cull on offensive items' option like the OP suggests is one idea but its sub-optimal in my opinion, if you forget to press that button before 't' your hosed with no recourse.

One of two things needs to happen, either the 'one strike and your out rule' should be softened substantially or the act of offending a caravan be changed into a explicitly act that can not be done by accident.

The simplest way to soften the one strike rule is have each act of offering forbidden items lower the merchants trade willingness by one level, this will give us 3 strikes if the merchant starts at default mood.  At the same time each offer containing forbidden items will induce a counter offer in which the forbidden items are dropped from your offer, this would work very much like the reverse of the current style of counteroffer in which they cherry pick some of your items they want added to the offer.  You'll see the pop up "The following items offend us and will not be trade" you accept and the items are culled from the offer.

This would make the current system at least bearable but the deeper problem is really the fact that their is never ANY circumstance in which it is desirable to offer forbidden items, the elves can never be tempted to break their kosher rules by a generous offer (which would present an interesting bit of strategy), so any UI that makes it possible to make such an offer is nothing more then a trap for the player to fall into!  So the really REALLY MIND NUMBINGLY OBVIOUS SOLUTION!! is just Grey out every forbidden item and prevent it from entering into the offer, presto elves are happy and I can trade without shooting myself in the foot.

The only objection I can think of is a role-playing freedom argument that I should "in principle" be able to do "anything" damn the consequences.  Wile I agree that's a desirable goal its clearly counter productive to actually game play in this situation.  Here is an analogy, say their is a combat system in which I could choose from a list of body parts on my opponent to attack, "slash throat", "slash arm" "stab belly", all very interesting an fun to play with.  But now suppose YOUR body parts are also in the list too and aren't labeled as such!  That's actually more 'realistic' then the earlier system because you CAN in fact slash your own throat at any time but its obviously a UI nightmare waiting to happen.  Destructive and Irreversible inputs need to be shielded with safeties. 

If anyone wishes to have the means to offend/insult the caravan and make it leave immediately then just give us a command to do just that and shield it with a warning pop up.  Best of all theirs no need to have it depend on any material object, I can just spit in the elf's eye, flip him the bird and curse till I'm blue in the face.  That should send ANY caravan packing immediately no matter how liberal their trade policies are.

[profit]

Elves become crossbow bolts in my fortress, but, if one were wanting to actually trade with them this is a good start.

[Maggarg - Eater of chicke]

Elves become crossbow bolts in my fortress, but, if one were wanting to actually trade with them this is a good start.

This is what I do. I don't think I've ever traded with elves, and I rarely spare them.

[Seshat]

(whoooooOOOOOooooo. Thread necromancy.)

I can't believe this is the only thread which suggests this. I suppose elf-bone crossbow bolts must be more popular than I thought.

But yes, count me in on wanting some way to filter out the spattered-with-blood or otherwise non-kosher stuff.

I don't care whether it's at the storehouse level, the selecting-what-to-take-to-the-depot level, or actually in the trade screen itself. But some way that doesn't involve having the human at the keyboard laboriously checking every item manually, would be GREAT!

[Michael]

I don't have great joy about checking whether the right sock was decorated "ethically" with cloth or "unethically" with turtle shell.

Elves only care about trees.  In my most recent fort (40d13) I've been using mostly bonecrafts for trade, and have had no trouble with the elves.  Although I can't be sure I didn't send them away only with rock mugs, the odds of that happening accidentally are long.

Automatic flagging of elf-unsafe items might make sense as a reward for high Appraiser skill.  Presently, this skill is effectively a boolean -- for gameplay purposes you have it at Novice or better (meaning you can see prices) or you don't.

Note that the lack of price information for being a Dabbling Appraiser is just as much "fake difficulty" as manual detection of elf-forbidden items.  A spoiled player could calculate prices by hand, but to do this computation for the typical load of crafts used to buy an anvil would be maddening.

[Grendus]

I don't have great joy about checking whether the right sock was decorated "ethically" with cloth or "unethically" with turtle shell.

Elves only care about trees.  In my most recent fort (40d13) I've been using mostly bonecrafts for trade, and have had no trouble with the elves.  Although I can't be sure I didn't send them away only with rock mugs, the odds of that happening accidentally are long.

Automatic flagging of elf-unsafe items might make sense as a reward for high Appraiser skill.  Presently, this skill is effectively a boolean -- for gameplay purposes you have it at Novice or better (meaning you can see prices) or you don't.

Note that the lack of price information for being a Dabbling Appraiser is just as much "fake difficulty" as manual detection of elf-forbidden items.  A spoiled player could calculate prices by hand, but to do this computation for the typical load of crafts used to buy an anvil would be maddening.

Elves used to be pickier, Toady changed them to only care about trees I believe. Odds are, Elves will remain hated until they become actually useful (maybe when magic is implemented, elves have always been magically attuned in any mythos).

It would be nice, I suppose, but not gamebreaking.

[Pilsu]

elves have always been magically attuned in any mythos

All the more reason to not make them all wizards

[Grendus]

I dunno. I hate the elves because they're arrogant little buggers who dictate lumber limits without trading anything remotely useful. If they brought some valuable magical trinkets, I might forgive their lumber limits (probably not, but I might). It also might make it more of a decision to piss them off rather than a given.

[Rowanas]

I dunno. I hate the elves because they're arrogant little buggers who dictate lumber limits without trading anything remotely useful. If they brought some valuable magical trinkets, I might forgive their lumber limits (probably not, but I might). It also might make it more of a decision to piss them off rather than a given.

I wouldn't want elven magic. dwarven runeshit is good enough for anyone. When magic comes in we're just going to whine about how they're shit at that as well (with good reason)

Screw their high magic, I'll take a glowing dwarven runesword of elf slaying any day, and wipe my arse with their scrolls and books. (I hope they're like the gideon's bibles. those things are SOOO soft.

[Michael]

I dunno. I hate the elves because they're arrogant little buggers who dictate lumber limits without trading anything remotely useful. If they brought some valuable magical trinkets, I might forgive their lumber limits (probably not, but I might). It also might make it more of a decision to piss them off rather than a given.

They're not that useless.

Elves are your only source for animals from outside your region.

If you're settled in a low-wood area, you lose nothing by playing ball with the Lumber Mafia.

They are also a source for aboveground plants and alcohol.  You can get those from the humans, but humans don't show up at every site -- they didn't show up on my current fort.

I wouldn't want elven magic. dwarven runeshit is good enough for anyone. When magic comes in we're just going to whine about how they're shit at that as well (with good reason)

You hope.  If Toady decides that elves have magic and dwarves don't, not even modding will let you give dwarves the superiority you think they deserve.  Workshops are hard-coded, and so is the mix of things traders will offer.

By the way, I suspect Elven magic depends on the health of forests, which is why they are so determined to deprive other races of beds and fuel....  (Think of the poor humans.  They don't dig, so they need to use lumber for the things dwarves use stone for.  They also can't access magma.)

[Grendus]

I dunno. I hate the elves because they're arrogant little buggers who dictate lumber limits without trading anything remotely useful. If they brought some valuable magical trinkets, I might forgive their lumber limits (probably not, but I might). It also might make it more of a decision to piss them off rather than a given.

They're not that useless.

Elves are your only source for animals from outside your region.

If you're settled in a low-wood area, you lose nothing by playing ball with the Lumber Mafia.

They are also a source for aboveground plants and alcohol.  You can get those from the humans, but humans don't show up at every site -- they didn't show up on my current fort.

I wouldn't want elven magic. dwarven runeshit is good enough for anyone. When magic comes in we're just going to whine about how they're shit at that as well (with good reason)

You hope.  If Toady decides that elves have magic and dwarves don't, not even modding will let you give dwarves the superiority you think they deserve.  Workshops are hard-coded, and so is the mix of things traders will offer.

By the way, I suspect Elven magic depends on the health of forests, which is why they are so determined to deprive other races of beds and fuel....  (Think of the poor humans.  They don't dig, so they need to use lumber for the things dwarves use stone for.  They also can't access magma.)

Elves always bring me crippled animals, which are useless for guard duties, and never in breeding pairs so I can't even wait a few years to have guard-cougars. I suspect magic will change things though, I really do. Even if dwarf magic is fairly strong, I think the reason Toady made the elves so weak was because he intended to put them on par with dwarves and humans when the magic arc is developed.

And I'm fairly certain humans can dig. They prefer to live aboveground (which is true to real life), but in theory they mine for minerals. I've seen human towns with dug cisterns, and seen screenshots of human castles made of stone. Humans don't use magma or steel because in the time period the game is set in humans haven't discovered them, or mechanics. In DF dwarves are the most technologically advanced race, with humans as a fairly close second and elves trailing behind goblins and even kobolds.

[Derakon]

The animals you're getting from elves are damaged because the elves have to pass through a cold region to get to you. Live someplace warmer and they'll be fine.

[Michael]

Elves always bring me crippled animals, which are useless for guard duties, and never in breeding pairs so I can't even wait a few years to have guard-cougars.

I just checked the cougar and fox I bought from them, and they are fine.

That said, for me the interest is in "catching them all" for my zoo, not guard duty.  So it wouldn't actually matter if they were a bit battered.  Although I would appreciate breeding pairs so I can eventually supply my fort with a diversity of leather...

[Rowanas]

Elf leather. It's the only animal that you know the elves will bring