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Author Topic: Right-wing radio host waterboarded, admits it's torture  (Read 7514 times)

Strife26

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Re: Right-wing radio host waterboarded, admits it's torture
« Reply #45 on: May 31, 2009, 12:36:05 am »

I'd like to point out that even if our Iraqi hostile only care about sectional differences, they still won't follow us out.

Bombing the Syrians and Iranians when they get home however, would possibly fall under the purview of my plan.
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Aqizzar

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Re: Right-wing radio host waterboarded, admits it's torture
« Reply #46 on: May 31, 2009, 01:13:02 am »

Gorjo, I can reread as many times as you like, there are things I'm not going to agree with you on.

Quote
No one is suggesting we stop torturing people to score points with Al-Qaeda's inner circle.
ummmm, why didnt President Obama release those photo's........?  People are suggesting that every day.  Now, yes, the USA didnt stop to score points.  But the politico's are using the idea of not inflaming anti-western hatred in terrosits as a tool to prosecute personal power struggles using water-boarding as an excuse.

You ask for an explanation on not releasing the photos, and then state the exact given reason.  So you don't believe that, and you think it's part of some partisan posturing.  Fine.  I think it's a rational answer in light of the shitstorm that followed the Abu Gharaib releases.  I don't agree with it, but I do believe it.

Especially when those people are not citizens of our country and the crime didnt take place in our country so our laws are immaterial and illegal to attempt prosecution under them according to our "treaties".

That is not how treaties work.  No one, in a position that it matters anyway, has ever said that detained terrorists be tried under American civil law.  They would be tried under military provisional law and international law (which yes, does exist) as befitting captured war criminals.  Terrorists captured by civil means in other countries can be tried under their laws by their courts with our material assistance, or extradited here as the case may warrant.

I will say this for the last time for the visuall information receiving impaired.  I think torture is wrong.  I think terrorists are very bad people.  I think that killing innocent civilians in a market place on purpose with a suicude bomb puts someone into a "outer plane of evil, beyond the realm of existing law".

You accuse me of misunderstanding you, and then proudly agree with exactly what I accused you of.  I believe that our laws and enforcement can handle anyone, no matter how evil, with no exceptions, no matter what.  You can claim belief in rule of law all you want - so long as you believe that there are people you can arbitrarily declare so evil as to exist beyond the law, those claims are meaningless.  What I want is denunciation of exactly that.

I dont feel the faintest bit sorry for the terrorists.
Call me a bunk psychoanalyst if you want, I think angry intonations like that betray how black and white you perceive the issue.  If you didn't think there were people in the argument who do sympathize with terrorists, you wouldn't feel the need to say it.


I should also say I largely agree with you on the Iraq explanation.  There are a lot of legitimate answers there, precisely because there's a lot of different factions.  I don't think that need be discussed any further here, especially since it wasn't the point of the original discussion.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2009, 01:20:08 am by Aqizzar »
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Ampersand

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Re: Right-wing radio host waterboarded, admits it's torture
« Reply #47 on: May 31, 2009, 01:56:04 am »

The laws of civilization as defined and accepted internationally.
Never heard of such, please elaborate.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geneva_Conventions

It should be noted that The United States signed on in 1882, well before the two World Wars.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2009, 01:59:31 am by Ampersand »
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Gorjo MacGrymm

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Re: Right-wing radio host waterboarded, admits it's torture
« Reply #48 on: May 31, 2009, 11:45:24 am »

I disagree with the first and last statements you made Aqizzar.  But on the first it seems you contradict yourself, but maybe i am reading it wrong.  I thought you said No One says we should placate the enemy, and then it seems you say we should placate the enemy.  Its possible i am confused and we are making each others case for us.

On the last, no anger at all.  Yes, I see a clear distinction (black and white if you must) between the innocent and the current enemy.

On the concept of layman psychoanalyst, i have my own opinion where some of the opposition to what I think is coming from, but not from a single person specifically, just a general sub-conscious ideal that permates much of american culture.  Everyone naturally wants to side with the "rebels" against the "evil empire".  Now, after you have stopped laughing, please think about it.  Ideals in our modern culture spread from national voices, voices in our modern media.  i am sure anyone can think of many many of those voices that influenced them.  I think people sub-consciously follow these influences and it blurs the distinction of reality and delusion, fact and fiction.  Once people make these inferences, it is easy for them to no longer perceive that actual facts, but instead the generalized black and white of the cultural voice.  And yes, the reverse ideals are true as well.
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Aqizzar

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Re: Right-wing radio host waterboarded, admits it's torture
« Reply #49 on: May 31, 2009, 04:58:56 pm »

Alright Gorjo, I want to and am trying to put this as peaceably as possible, but you might take offense anyway.  Of course we must be able to have disagreements without trying to verbal destroy each other, but I still believe that your position is fundamentally irrational.

I disagree with the first and last statements you made Aqizzar.  But on the first it seems you contradict yourself, but maybe i am reading it wrong.  I thought you said No One says we should placate the enemy, and then it seems you say we should placate the enemy.  Its possible i am confused and we are making each others case for us.

You are indeed reading it wrong, because you are still viewing the overall conflict of America and Terrorism as taking place in a vacuum.  We can kill all the insane people we catch, but you can't kill insanity itself.  That's not the point of this war.  It's the prove to all the people inbetween Al Qaeda and America that we and not them are who people should at least tolerate, if not support.  Every time it becomes public knowledge that we violated our principles at war, it becomes an argument that the ordinary people of the Middle East should tolerate and support Al Qaeda.  Our job is to discredit those arguments and gain the support of the larger population, by proving we are better that the portrayal.

The Obama administration do not chose to hold the photos to "placate the enemy", they did it to avoid inflaming anti-American sentiment in all the unaligned people whose respect we're trying to earn.  My personal point was, I see their decision as legitimately founded, but I would have made the other choice and released the photos in the name of honesty.

Yes, I see a clear distinction (black and white if you must) between the innocent and the current enemy.

Fair enough that you see the war itself as a black and white matter (but on that momentarily), but that's not what I was saying.  I'm saying that you see this very argument as a black and white difference.  That there are two and only two positions, "we must maintain a legal black hole to hold people we arbitrarily declare too evil to prosecute" or "terrorists are just misunderstood teenagers who deserve our sympathy and respect".

I don't know if your description of bunkering behavior was meant as an explanation for your own views, or if you were trying to set yourself apart from that mentality, but it is exactly what you've fallen victim to.  When you say things like, "No One says we should placate the enemy, and then it seems you say we should placate the enemy", it shows again that you really can't see a distinction between the insane core of Al Qaeda and the other billion people of the Middle East.  Your portrayal of opponents to our prosecution of the war and their explanations of it shows again that you really can't see a distinction between people who want to logically define the conflict and punish evil people within the written rules, and people who flat out oppose any violent response and feel some human sympathy for said evil people.

I gather that you see yourself in a clear us-vs-them conflict yourself.  That America is the besieged yet invincible bastion of all truth and morality.  That any action taken to defend it is therefor justified by our definitional righteousness.  And that anyone who doesn't fit with that portrayal, be they insane terrorists, far away populations unhappy with our military actions, or just people who disagree with our strategy in this conflict, all fall together into a great indivisible mass of "enemies".  Maybe it is human nature to simplify this utterly complex war down into such concrete differences.  That doesn't make it right, and that doesn't mean it can't and shouldn't change.
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Strife26

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Re: Right-wing radio host waterboarded, admits it's torture
« Reply #50 on: June 01, 2009, 12:24:16 am »

I'm curious, what do you think that America should do in a global sense Aqizzar?
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Il Palazzo

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Re: Right-wing radio host waterboarded, admits it's torture
« Reply #51 on: June 01, 2009, 03:53:36 am »

Hmmm, every discussion should have a poll added, so that the two sides can judge their persuasive powers. After all, it's very unlikely to make the other side agree with your arguments, but it's so much easier to convince the audience.
Right now, I'd say: Gorjo - Aqizzar: 0 - 1.
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Aqizzar

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Re: Right-wing radio host waterboarded, admits it's torture
« Reply #52 on: June 01, 2009, 04:02:15 am »

Oh sure, put me on the spot like that.


I'm curious, what do you think that America should do in a global sense Aqizzar?

That's an excellent question, for which I naturally have no immediate answer.  Really, I'd have to take some time and hammer out a defined position, much as you've done.

I will say that I'm overall not really upset with the way America is handling our foreign policy now, partly because the Bush administration is now water under the courtroom and Obama's policies haven't solidified yet.  But also because, except for Iraq, Afghanistan, Colombia, Mexico, our Cold War legacy garrisons, our "defense" budget spending, our nuclear stockpile, and our national security readiness, I don't have a lot of complaints.

Initially, I only had Iraq and Afghanistan in there, but it ballooned as I wrote it.  Like I said, I need to think about it.
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Gorjo MacGrymm

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Re: Right-wing radio host waterboarded, admits it's torture
« Reply #53 on: June 01, 2009, 09:16:28 am »

OK, I see you are making a distinction between Al Queda and other terrorists and your answer seems driven by this.  Al Queda is merely the most famous of many groups, of which Al Queda is merely a small part.  These "insane cores" have been around far longer than Al Queda.
Quote
We can kill all the insane people we catch, but you can't kill insanity itself.  That's not the point of this war.  It's the prove to all the people inbetween Al Qaeda and America that we and not them are who people should at least tolerate, if not support.  Every time it becomes public knowledge that we violated our principles at war, it becomes an argument that the ordinary people of the Middle East should tolerate and support Al Qaeda.  Our job is to discredit those arguments and gain the support of the larger population, by proving we are better that the portrayal.
The USA has been attempting that for decades to no avail.  You seem to think that there will be some "magic moral principle" which will suddenly make the world stop acting violently.  Its a pipe dream.  If there was such a principle, crime would also disappear, but it wont.  To think that if you act perfectly moral, wonderful, loving and become a beacon of goodness for the world to see wont create terrorists who hate us means you haven't been paying attention to this generational conflict.

The USA souldn't be torturing for the USA's sake.  Fuck what any one else might say about it.  Our morality is our concern, not anyone elses.  If a country begins to behave in a way to attempt to appease the rest of the world it will go insane.  People around the world who want to wave waterboarding in our face while ignoring the MASSIVE amount of good we do are allready predisposed to hate the USA.  Large amounts of people hate the USA simply because of the good we do.  The hate stems from greed, selfishness, jealously, fear, laziness, fanaticism etc, not reason and rationality.

The USA isnt besieged because we are the bastion of all good and morality.  We are besieged because we are prosperous.  We are besieged because we are successful.  We are besieged because we believe in freedom and equality.  We are besieged because we are a western power founded upon Judeo-Christian beliefs.  Lastly, we are besieged because we exist.

It is an us vs. them conflict because there is nothing we can do to make them stop.  Only they can stop themselves.  Nothing we do will make that happen.  Only an enlightenment of their own creating will do so.  There have been some notable success' of that, but unfortunately they still get crushed by the other side.

BTW, it is not a complex war.  It is a simple war.  It is a war for the right to live as we choose.

You still seem to respond to as if i think its OK to torture people.  Torture is disgusting.

There is a difference between people who disagree with the USA and people willing to kill innocents because they hate the USA.  To speak as if I dont see this is incredibly insulting and shows your unwavering doctrine of black and white.  Stop projecting.


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I JUST READ THIS

....After all, it's very unlikely to make the other side agree with your arguments...
yeah, your right, i will let what i said stand on its own.


sort of

because i only [s /s] this and didnt erase it.......which probably shows something about me thats still immature..................but whatthehell
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Zangi

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Re: Right-wing radio host waterboarded, admits it's torture
« Reply #54 on: June 01, 2009, 11:49:17 am »

http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local/Mancow-Takes-on-Waterboarding-and-Loses.html

"Turns out the stunt wasn't so funny. Witnesses said Muller thrashed on the table, and even instantly threw the toy cow he was holding as his emergency tool to signify when he wanted the experiment to stop.  He only lasted 6 or 7 seconds."

It's...almost schadenfreude.  Not quite, but almost.  But it is informative about what exactly it involves.

And the point is:
It is applaud-able that people who laud that waterboarding is 'not torture' would actually test the theory out to disprove of those who do consider it torture.
Albeit it has backfired for them.  I don't think anyone else in mancow's office will want to disprove what he says now... and his actions doing the waterboarding.

Quote
Do you think waterboarding is torture?
   1. 12% Nah, I could take it
   2. 88% Yeah. If Mancow can't handle it, it must be.
Maybe we should let those 12% try it out if they still think they are so tough... >.>
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Gorjo MacGrymm

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Mr.Person

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Re: Right-wing radio host waterboarded, admits it's torture
« Reply #56 on: June 03, 2009, 06:33:19 am »

The USA isnt besieged because we are the bastion of all good and morality.  We are besieged because we are prosperous.  We are besieged because we are successful.  We are besieged because we believe in freedom and equality.  We are besieged because we are a western power founded upon Judeo-Christian beliefs.  Lastly, we are besieged because we exist.

It is an us vs. them conflict because there is nothing we can do to make them stop.  Only they can stop themselves.  Nothing we do will make that happen.  Only an enlightenment of their own creating will do so.  There have been some notable success' of that, but unfortunately they still get crushed by the other side.

What? You think that every single terrorist has been that way from birth and that we had no influence or way of changing their terrorist-nest? Many of the terrorists don't like America for many reasons. You correctly pointed out that one is existing hatred from within the Muslim world. After all, if your family, friends, and everyone around you hated or at best disliked something, you would hate it too. But there's another facet,as weel, in that some potential terrorists are swayed by diehard radical current terrorists who find real or fictional evidence to prove America is evil. Put yourself in their shoes. We've been total assholes to Muslims since Islam left the Middle East. Frequently, during the Middle Ages, Muslims would be at best, outlawed from many professions, property ownership, and public prayer. They were outcasts (Note: Christians in Islam areas weren't treated much better.) At worst, in some places, such as Spain and Turkey, Muslims were persecuted, tortured, and executed. After WWII, the US dominated Allies basically said "Fuck you" to Palestine. In recent times, the US also attacked Iraq twice and Afghanistan. The US gives the most foreign aid to Israel, generally the most hared country by Muslims.

To the Muslim world, the Western world and the US especially look very anti-Islam. They view the US as a bunch of carpetbaggers who have only made things worse since they showed up. The terrorists try and convince young people that the western world and the US especially need to be destroyed ASAP for the good of the their country, Islam, the world, or whatever. Most Muslims reject this notion; however, the more ammo we feed these people, the more people they'll convince to join. Each bad thing the US does or did may just be the thing to convince a person to go terrorist. So yes, the US can in fact sway terrorism. I do agree that convincing current terrorists that what they're doing is stupid is in and of itself stupid, but that doesn't mean that, given the oppurtunity, we shouldn't make a reasonable effort at changing their views. That is, after all, the whole point of jail.

Your statement that there's nothing we can do to stop terrorists is absurd. If the US can convince terrorist-filled countries like Pakistan or Iran to step up their anti-terrorist programs without invading the country, hasn't it helped stop terrorism? There is a middle ground between "Kill 'em all!" and "Ignore them", which, by your opinion, you seem to think nonexistant. If we could seperate terrorists from their supplies, they're no longer a threat. If we could seperate them from each other, we could drastically reduce their likelihood of performing an attack. If we can seperate them from the general public, we've cut off the source of new terrorists. If we could cut them off from America, they're not a threat. The last one is obvoisly impossible, but you get the idea.

On another note, this isn't aimed at you or anyone in particular, but several comments that have been made are dangerously "Christian world vs. Muslim world" which is obviously false. There are two conflicts: UN vs several countries (Iran, Pakistan, North Korea, Sudan, and others) and US government vs anti-US violent terrorists. If you get the groups wrong you might broaden them to places and people who aren't involved. It's not US government vs Muslims or UN vs Islamic countries. Remember, most Muslims are NOT terrorists. Juat wanted to make sure everybody keeps this striaght.
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Leafsnail

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Re: Right-wing radio host waterboarded, admits it's torture
« Reply #57 on: June 03, 2009, 04:26:36 pm »

Quote
UN vs several countries (Iran, Pakistan, North Korea, Sudan, and others)
Wait a second, our main ally in fighting the Taliban is also one of our main enemies?

Anyway, while this guy does sound like a jerk, it was good of him to at least agree to be submitted to the thing which he claimed was like being in the bathtub.  There's no way that waterboarding isn't torture, it is clearly designed to be so, and the US army uses it in its torture resistance training sessions.

Waterboarding violates the third Geneva convention, article 13, to which the US signed up.

Quote
Prisoners of war must at all times be humanely treated. Any unlawful act or omission by the Detaining Power causing death or seriously endangering the health of a prisoner of war in its custody is prohibited, and will be regarded as a serious breach of the present Convention.
...
Likewise, prisoners of war must at all times be protected, particularly against acts of violence or intimidation and against insults and public curiosity.


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dreiche2

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Re: Right-wing radio host waterboarded, admits it's torture
« Reply #58 on: June 07, 2009, 07:12:22 am »

I don't want to fully join the discussion, but I'm just going to voice my support for Aqizzar so that he doesn't feel so unsupported.

I just recently watched Waltz With Bashir. I think that gives a good impression about the kind of circumstances people have lived in in the middle east since decades. And maybe also how this would make people become terrorists.

Surely, you cannot solve these issues primarily with war, against terror or not...
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SniHjen

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Re: Right-wing radio host waterboarded, admits it's torture
« Reply #59 on: June 07, 2009, 07:26:59 am »

All of you are missing something important.

Take a innocent man and waterboard him. He will now tell you whatever you want to hear to get you to stop.


Ergo: Torture doesn't work.
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