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[Ampersand]

You sound like Mancow himself, two days ago.

[Idiom]

I wonder if someone could corner him into disproving Chinese water torture. It's just dripping water, after all.

[viskaslietuvai]

Pffft. Waterboarding isn't torture. There's no physical harm, no intense pain. It doesn't even cause any debilitating permanent injuries! What gives!?

Torture isent suppose to leave scars, its a way to get information out of someone, not harm them(unless your a sick and depraved person).

I do believe the man was being sarcastic good Doom Cow.

[jaked122]

I've made note of this for use on my little brother, then myself... I'm sure I'll come out of it laughing.

[Cthulhu]

They did Chinese Water Torture on Mythbusters(The girl, of course, was the one receiving)  Apparently it's pretty rough after a while.

[Agdune]

I want to post something snarky and sarcastic about the (incorrect) viewpoint that the primary part of torture is causing physical pain and harm, but it's been done in this thread already. Seriously, some people need to pull their heads out of their asses and realise the part of being tortured that does all the psychological damage is the fact that you're helpless.

Not to mention the real world isn't like an episode of 24 where the mean shady man named Infidel-crusher-mc-muslim is in custody but just refuses to be nice and tell us where he hid the baby he kidnapped and strapped a timebomb to. But y'know, people and their television, eh?

[Gorjo MacGrymm]

Yeah, those poor poor psychotic murderous fanatical terrorists Allah fearing innocents who were unaware that taking part in terrorist training camps muslim boyscout activities could be construed as a threat.  Because of course they were all innocent until we started rounding them up and torturing them for fun.  They were all loving, decent peoples.  They and their comrades hadnt ever done enything to anybody before!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Hamas_suicide_attacks
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_Beirut_barracks_bombing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Trade_Center_1993_bombings
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11,_2001_attacks
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/April_1983_U.S._Embassy_bombing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_Kuwait_Bombing
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lebanon_hostage_crisis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TWA_Flight_847
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/November_1997_Luxor_massacre
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rijeka_terror_attack
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attack_on_the_Egyptian_Embassy_in_Pakistan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_designated_terrorist_organizations
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Hostage_Crisis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khobar_Towers

waiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiit, this all happened before President Bush the great satan took office and started torturing the innocent.  I guess, in order to protest this aggregious act, the Muslim world built a time machine!  Because everyone knows that the USA the great satan created all this anti-western hatred by invading Iraq to get WMD's that werent there, right!?]


I cant wait for that new Hope/Crosby moview, "The Road to Bekaa Valley"

[Aqizzar]

How hard is it to accept that torturing people is an egregious act, if not in nature then at least in law and treaty?  It's not a matter of how "bad" the people you're torturing are.  It doesn't matter how "effective" it is.  It is the height of international illegality, which the United States has prosecuted other nations and it's own soldiers for in the past, precisely because of own laws and standards, based on the idea that some actions are inexcusably reprehensible, regardless of any context.

Of course terrorism existed before 2000.  That's not the point.  Extremists will take any argument they can find to gain public credibility.  Let them manufacture their own rationale, instead of handing them one on a silver platter, denigrating ourselves before all rational people in the process.

Not that this means anything to you.  If you're willing to stand behind crap like "psychotic murderous fanatical terrorists Allah fearing innocents who were unaware that taking part in terrorist training camps muslim boyscout activities", it's obvious you're a rationale-grasping bigot yourself.

[Gorjo MacGrymm]

... handing them one on a silver platter ...

We do that for these people by merely existing.  The idea that the waterboarding issue is giving them more of a reason is laughable.  Once a person is willing to purposely mass muder innocents who have no bearing on the actual conflict while purposely not attacking the actual armed enemies DO NOT NEED ANY MORE REASON, they are allready beyond any reason.  They do it because the sky is blue, or the sun rose in the east or because they are so full of hate concerning something they dont even understand they gladly kill whomever is handy.

Also, I do agree that the USA should have taken the moral high-ground on torture, but I am not gonna sit here and scream my anger.  The people screaming the loudest over this arent the muslim fanatics, but the fanatics in the USA who dont even understand the issues at hand and are the blindly manipulated hand of political maneuvering.  The water-boarding issue is the tree that made people forget the forest around them is on fire..............ug poor analogy but I think my point gets across.

Lastly, Why the personal attack directed towards me?  I was only responding to the underlying idea permeating too much of this worldwide debate that the prisoners are innocent victems.  They are not.  They are vile things who willingly kill innocents for the priest/mullah who told them to. 

Now, I know someone is going to try to make a case for the USA killing civilians and thats CRAP.  Never in the entire history of armed conflict has a military gone so far out of its way to avoid civilian casualties.  Thats the entire reason we have smart weapons.  Its the entire reason Afganistan/Iran/Iraq/Syria arent the worlds largest exporter of glowing sand.  Its the entire reason why the Allied troops have such a problem in Iraq, because they wont just broadsword the enemy.  You could even make a case that MORE civilians area dead in Iraq because we didnt use much stronger measures and therefore the war occupation dragged on longer than it needed to.  The enemy certainly didnt care who it killed, just as long as people died and it made the news so political hounds in other countries can whine and yelp about how terrible the allies are.


(the following is not directed at anyone in particular, but instead I am speaking in general terms)
It doesnt matter if you like it or not, if you supported it or not, if you protested it or not, if you took action to change the political atmosphere or not, if you apologized for it or not.........  fanatical terrorists dont give a f***.  They just want you dead, period.  All the reasons you ascribe to them, sympathy you have for them, apologies you make for them are moot to them unless it lets them get closer for the kill.  If you think the USA shouldnt be torturing, then say so in your vote and move on back to the front lines, cuz the war isnt paused while you spiral in plastic self-righteous outrage.

note:  in no way did i purposely try to sound like Kyle Reese in that last paragraph but.......lol

[LegoLord]

I think the funny thing about terrorists and others who dislike America calling Bush "the Great Satan" is that there are so many Americans that hate Bush and would agree with the hater on the particular issue of Bush.

[Agdune]

I wasn't trying to imply that there are no psychopathic nutjobs out there who kill/maim/do stuff, my idea was more related to the fact that there's probably far, far less of them in the detention camps where this goes on than there are ignorant fall-guys and people who were just in the wrong place at the wrong time. So my drive there would be 'sure, torturing someone in the know could potentially give you some useful information, but you've got almost no chance of knowing who knows what, making the entire process wateful and indiscriminate'. I failed to elaborate on that though, so my bad.

[Cheeetar]

Gorjo, there are fanatical terrorists who want to destroy America for little to no reason, yes. But that dosen't mean they should themselves be terrorised and scarred for life/killed. Some of them could be innocent, and just tortured because they looked suspicious. Some of them could have been brainwashed from birth. Some of them could want to kill all American scum, but we still shouldn't torture them. Two wrongs != right.

[Gorjo MacGrymm]

@ Agdune - I think there are more nuts then you think, but thats just my opinion so itsa gentlemans disagreement.  Also, I again wasnt directing my statements at anyone specifically.  I again agree that torture is wrong.

@Cheeetar - I said torturing was wrong.  Please read my post.  I also didnt say 2 wrongs make a right.  Every single prisoner wasnt tortured.  Nobody was tortured for being suspicious looking.  It was leadership cadre. 

I am sure someone who really didnt belong in the camps/prisons were treated terribly by the guards, but that is just human nature in action.  Never in the history of human confinement has every prisoner been treated equally and fairly.  Humans just dont do that.  Its sad, but unchangeable.  We should do our best to minimize it and teach differently but we cant stop it and we shouldnt waste effort struggling against our very natures over much.  Some things humans have to accept as "part and parcel" of existing.  Humans mistreating humans is part of that.






Now honestly.  Was anyone here actually surprised that the "terrorists" were subjected to harsh interrogation, human nature being what it is?

[Ampersand]

It's not a matter of being surprised, it's a matter of The Law of our nation. The laws of civilization as defined and accepted internationally. Those laws were broken. It doesn't matter if the enemies don't abide by those laws; we make ourselves lesser by breaking them.

[Fishersalwaysdie]

The laws of civilization as defined and accepted internationally.

Never heard of such, please elaborate.