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[Byakugan01]

Dwarves need public baths that they can use (for a fee, once the economy starts up). Each room needs to have only one tub though, so dwarves don't have to be put out by exposure to nudity.

...What's the difference either way?

Baths as a use for soap are in the dev notes though. Which raises an interesting question; at what point do we actually cheer when we see soapmakers instead of pulling levers?

[Footkerchief]

Baths as a use for soap are in the dev notes though. Which raises an interesting question; at what point do we actually cheer when we see soapmakers instead of pulling levers?

Soap is actually going to get used in the next version, at least in the realm of healthcare.

[kotekzot]

I can only imagine the stories that come from tantrums about dwarves being brutally murdered while taking a crap, or dwarves throwing chamberpots. I'd find it really funny that they would throw feces just to calm down and receive a bad thought from having previously handled poop.

i can imagine what would happen:
urist mccrazy is throwing a tantrum!
urist throws some poop around
urist has calmed down
urist: "ARGH THERE'S SHIT ALL OVER MY HANDS BLOOD MURDER KILL KILL KILL"
urist mccrazy is throwing a tantrum!
et cetera et cetera.

now, can you really be against such hilarity? you must be an enemy of fun if you can resist the idea of "poopmurdered".

[Byakugan01]

This is where even I, who am otherwise an ardent supporter of the idea, draw a line. Sewage is okay. Having sewage accumulate in your fortress without a proper waste disposal system is okay. Dwarves acting like immature crap flinging monkeys? NO. In even in their worst state of mental derangement, a dwarf should be above committing such acts. Sewage-which would be more of a fluid managed not unlike how milk (or better yet water to give to bedridden dwarves) is in terms of collecting it for use, and like blood as far as disposing of it goes (needs to be diluted away) allows for everything useful we can use feces/urine for, while eliminating gross abuses of the solid system, while also allowing for an "underworld" or criminal element of our forts to develop with a reasonable hiding place-and additionally allowing for things such as giant rats and other staples of the absurdly spacious fantasy sewer to develop and occur. Besides...throwing feces in a tantrum makes little sense, since they'd get a bad thought from it and it is not something they would ever do normally. I'm fine with sewage, but not throwable crap. We have a variety of uses for what waste material could be used for, at any rate: maybe we should collect them in the OP post, at least the viable ones.

[Silverionmox]

I agree with Byakugan01. Throwing excrement plays no role in a fortress. Demonicallly possessed dwarves, maybe. Nothing you should expect in the course of normal play.

[Chthonic]

I would like it if animals produced waste too (however monikered).  Right now, I loathe having livestock in my meeting halls/dining rooms . . . if they produced waste that decreased the happiness of dwarves in the room, then there would be a reason to keep animals off in a pit somewhere, or in the fields, or whereever.

[chucks]

Let it be known:
I do not support the flinging of poo by dwarves, no matter how upset they may be!

That is all.


Ok, maybe not...

I also agree that animals should produce waste, and I equally dislike having them hang out in the dining room.  Perhaps a few creature tags such as [USES_TOILETS], [BURIES_WASTE], [MUST_POOP_OUTSIDE] to cover the cases for humans/dwarves/elves/goblins, cats, and dogs respectively.  Anything without these tags (like horses, cows, donkeys, mules, camels, wild animals, etc) will just go wherever they are whenever they need to go.  This could even produce a 'walking dogs' job somewhere when a dog needs to go, with the consequence of having the dog just poop wherever if ignored for too long.

[Felblood]

I agree that even a dwarf who is angry enough to punch walls and throw dishes shouldn't be willing to pick up sewage.

Chamber pots could be like a rock bucket that a dwarf uses when he get's up in the morning. Cleaners can collect the pots and dump them into the sewer system, unless someone knocks them down, in which case they act like water buckets, but more horrible.

Alternatively, dwarves could just visit the sewer grate every now and again, or empty their own chamber pot, every morning (allowing for some interesting traffic flow controls, as dwarves going to the barracks can take a different route than those going from).

As always, if the dwarven schedule is going to get busier, they need to travel faster, so you don't lose a week by walking to the bathroom and back.

Animals producing waste is probably easier to deal with and more intuitive. Most of them aren't doing anything, anyway. This does introduce the possibility of drowning kittens in a pit that slowly fills with their own waste, which I'm sure will appeal to someone here.

[Tenebrais]

Animals producing waste is probably easier to deal with and more intuitive. Most of them aren't doing anything, anyway. This does introduce the possibility of drowning kittens in a pit that slowly fills with their own waste, which I'm sure will appeal to someone here.

I think sewage should decay faster than it's produced. Releasing clouds of miasma, of course, so it's still not a good idea to let the livestock crap all over your dining room.

I like the thought of sewage as a generic brown liquid that needs to be dealt with to keep the fort happy. I don't like the image of it being picked up and thrown around, even by a dwarf that's gone stark raving mad. Treating it as a liquid like milk, water etc seems the best option. Perhaps making the liquid system more general first would be a good idea, so water, vomit, lava and beer all behave the same way if you let them.

[alfie275]

How about RAWs for liquids, then have it as a byproduct of [NEED_FULLFILL:EAT:LIQUID:WASTE] with a delay of [DIGESTTIME:?].

[Pilsu]

I endorse crazy dwarves eating their own poop

[Lymojo]

Yea you could intentionally drive a few to madness so that they'd spend their days as full-time poop cleaners.

[Byakugan01]

The idea is, however, that it would be treated as a liquid-ala milk, water, etc-which means that it would fall under the category of the "cleaning" job. No need to drive dwarves to madness to do that.

[Chthonic]

Incorporating biological waste into Dwarf Fortress should do so in a way that meshes with the pre-existing texture of the game.  It should provide an increase in entertaining complexity.  It should not gross out players who don't want to wallow in it.  It should take advantage of pre-existing mechanics wherever possible.  There should be multiple paths to dealing with it that do not feel contrived.  I've seen a lot of the following suggestions in this and other threads . . . it's a compilation of much deep thought by many individuals.

So, first off-words.  Language should be reasonably frank but emotionally neutral . . . wherever possible, it should avoid the extremes of rudeness (at one end) and clinical terminology (at the other).  For solid waste I would advocate "filth" or even "dung" over "poop" or "shit".  Liquid waste is probably best left as "urine".

Manifestation in game.  Filth should be an item that decomposes over time.  Dwarves should get an unhappy thought from having to handle it or step in it.  Urine should be a liquid subject to evaporation, and dwarves should also dislike stepping in it.  Each of these should produce miasma indoors after a bit (maybe smaller amounts of it for urine) and possibly attract pests such as flies.  There's no particular reason to have dwarves track either substance around.  The presence of either substance in a body of water causes nearby water to be murky.

Production.  Dwarves should produce units of filth per year in step with the units of food they eat, and should produce urine per year in step with the units of booze or water.  Time between eating/drinking and the need to excrete could be variable or based on a statistic like constitution.  A dwarf who's gotta go but can't for some reason should get a bad thought.  When animals are instilled with the need to eat and drink, they'll operate under the same circumstances . . . until then, they produce droppings randomly.

Natural disposal.  Urine will evaporate from a hard surface after a while, and will quickly soak away into a porous surface (such as soil).  Filth will turn into soil (suitable for plant growth).  While it is transitioning, if it is in water, it might turn areas of water murky.

Deliberate disposal.  The player may identify a zone as a waste dump, which is used directly or into which buckets of filth are dumped.  A dwarf might get a mildly unhappy thought about the state of 'the facilities' for using a bucket or the unmodified dump zone.  More elaborate zones might consist of a grate over a 1x1 pit.  A single new building ('commode') might even provide a mild happy thought depending on the quality of its construction (Urist was pleased with the quality of the facilities lately) and sans pit might be equipped with a bucket for later dumping.  Healthcare workers might provide buckets to bedridden, chained, and otherwise immobile dwarves when it is required (unattended dwarves might unhappily lie in their own filth).

Dwarves with the 'cleaning' labor enabled take buckets of filth and urine to the dump zone.  They also collect filth and urine deposited on the floor by animals and the insane (the latter won't necessarily be intrusive as insane dwarves seem to be killed quickly or don't eat/drink).

Waste-based industry.  Waste can be converted into fertilizer at an alchemist's shop for use on fields and by planters to (b)uild arable surfaces on bare rock, if the dump zone is accessible.  Filth and urine become substrates required by tanneries, unobtrusively sought by tanners.

Advantages to this system.  The game becomes more complicated, but in a non-overwhelming way.  There is a reason to build an elaborate sewer system, but it is not necessary.  Players who don't want to deal with it much at all can designate a hole in the ground and not have to interact with poop much beyond that.  Those who want to can add a gold commode to every noble abode.  Waste provides a source of fertilizer for fields (not necessarily necessary, but nice to have) and makes tanneries appropriately miasmic.  There is a reason to segregate animals to specific areas of the fortress, and if you do happen to have cows and dogs and kittens running in uncontrolled mayhem all over, the fortress will become filthy (as it should . . . pet peeve of mine).

Players who don't want to deal with it are not onerously exposed to scatology, while those who really can't see the world any other way can dunk goblins and elves into cesspits to their hearts' content.

[Lymojo]

The idea is, however, that it would be treated as a liquid-ala milk, water, etc-which means that it would fall under the category of the "cleaning" job. No need to drive dwarves to madness to do that.

That takes me back.