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Author Topic: A suggestion on poop handling  (Read 19012 times)

chucks

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Re: A suggestion on poop handling
« Reply #30 on: May 22, 2009, 11:01:35 pm »

Pumps would be required to prevent the contamination between sewage water and clean water, as normal.  The fluid details would need to be changed to reflect that one turd won't contaminate the entire water supply of a 40 level mountain keep somewhere when it touched water.  Now, pumps can have one extra function:  being a sump pump!

I think it would be the ultimate insult to toss feces at someone, but it's just nasty.  I don't even want to go close enough to it to pick it up to sling it.  I'm pretty sure that touching another dwarf's chamberpot is SEVERELY unclean.  Look at what they eat and drink.

What with the whole health care arc being tackled this go around, maybe the dorfies could down some pepto bismol and various digestive tract style concoctions.  Milk of magnesia, sugared chalk, other random herbal remedies?
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irmo

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Re: A suggestion on poop handling
« Reply #31 on: May 23, 2009, 12:23:56 am »

This is the worst suggestion thread we've had since varkarrus proposed adding dwarven serial killers. Step it up, people. I know you can do better than this.

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eerr

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Re: A suggestion on poop handling
« Reply #32 on: May 23, 2009, 12:26:44 am »

Toady Will not Handle Poop for You.

That is all.
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Byakugan01

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Re: A suggestion on poop handling
« Reply #33 on: May 24, 2009, 11:28:06 am »

Again, he wouldn't handle it if he couldn't find a way to make it FUN. And realistically, I think you won't be able to see a fortress built of crap any time soon in any case. Fire imps would practically auto forbid it-as would magma. Works on the same principle as a road made out of coke that comes into contact with magma. This would also make sieges more interesting, as they could attempt to use this to deliberately contaminate your water supply via backflow-maybe even bringing along masons, carpenters or whatnot to install floodgates so that your water supply has no choice but to overflow. This would actually make an aquifer desirable, since you could just seal it off from the outside (easy with magma, but walls work too) and use it for your drinking water, while you have a separate water source serving to flush your sewage systems.
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From Mr. Welch's 1350 things he is not allowed to do in a RPG:
148. There is no Gnomish Deathgrip, and even if there was, it wouldn't involve tongs.
171. My character's dying words are not allowed to be "Hastur, Hastur, Hastur"
218. No matter my alignment, organizing halfling pit fights is a violation.
231. I am not allowed to do anything that would make a Sith Lord cry.
240. Any character with more than three skills specializing in chainsaw is vetoed.

Lymojo

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Re: A suggestion on poop handling
« Reply #34 on: May 24, 2009, 12:29:25 pm »

This is the worst suggestion thread we've had since varkarrus proposed adding dwarven serial killers. Step it up, people. I know you can do better than this.



Don't we already have Dwarven serial killers? Isn't that what fell moods are?
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chucks

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Re: A suggestion on poop handling
« Reply #35 on: May 24, 2009, 09:27:04 pm »

I agree that creature waste shouldn't be added just to have it.  It should definitely only be added if it complements already existing mechanisms for food and water consumption and digestion, will add a level of significant difficulty and necessary fortress planning, and can be turned on and off in the config.

Plus, what waste does Bronze Collusi make?  Metal ingots?  I would hate to speculate upon what fire imps have for waste...
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Craftling

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Re: A suggestion on poop handling
« Reply #36 on: May 24, 2009, 11:11:51 pm »

Again, he wouldn't handle it if he couldn't find a way to make it FUN.
Waste could be used as fuel for furnaces in desert areas.
Toady Will not Handle Poop for You.
That is all.
There we go thats a reason to put in crap.
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Lymojo

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Re: A suggestion on poop handling
« Reply #37 on: May 25, 2009, 04:32:48 am »

Just from reading this thread it sounds like adding waste could be pretty damn fun.

Also, Chucks: Why is it unrealistic for a single turd to contaminate an entire water source? I don't want dwarves shitting in my cistern, not even one.

I think having to manage waste for dwarves sounds pretty cool, and would give some nice variety to those z-4 through z-8 levels.

Someone mentioned invaders contaminating outside water sources, which is an awesome idea, even if it has nothing to do with shitting.
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Craftling

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Re: A suggestion on poop handling
« Reply #38 on: May 25, 2009, 04:44:34 am »

poison... ;D
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sonerohi

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Re: A suggestion on poop handling
« Reply #39 on: May 25, 2009, 02:05:17 pm »

I agree that creature waste shouldn't be added just to have it.  It should definitely only be added if it complements already existing mechanisms for food and water consumption and digestion, will add a level of significant difficulty and necessary fortress planning, and can be turned on and off in the config.

Plus, what waste does Bronze Collusi make?  Metal ingots?  I would hate to speculate upon what fire imps have for waste...

Creatures with the [NO_EAT] tag are presumed to lack the functions to consume and 'process' food.
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Muz

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Re: A suggestion on poop handling
« Reply #40 on: May 25, 2009, 02:22:45 pm »

I HAVE A SOLUTION. Toady, make bodily excretions like blood and vomit and shit moddable. Assign 'zones' where they are allowed to excrete bodily fluids. If someone steps on them, it produces a negative thought.

So, if anyone wants this in their game, they can just mod it later on.
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Byakugan01

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Re: A suggestion on poop handling
« Reply #41 on: May 25, 2009, 02:33:18 pm »

As a note, using waste as fuel was EXACTLY what the plains Indians did; since the plains region of the U.S. had very few (if any) trees, at least some tribes came up with the idea of drying buffalo waste and using it to fuel fires. That was pretty much the only thing they had to work with, and it worked quite well-keep in mind that what comes out is not 100% digested, especially in herbivores (you can actually find blades of grass or leaf pieces in their droppings). If implemented for LIVESTOCK, it would also give a good reason to actually set up a proper stable instead of just letting them wander around the fort.

 It could also be converted into compost, which would give a place to put all those animal remains the cats bring you. Could also offer a solution of what to do with meat that gets rotten-ditto for withered plants. Put it all in a "compost" heap, and then use the result to fertilize. They still use cattle-and even human-feces to fertilize crops-the same ones we buy in the supermarket. And if works today, even when there are more sophisticated chemical-based fertilizers, it would almost be a necessity in medieval times. Where wood is scarce, every bit is a precious resource; if you can avoid burning wood to make potash, then you would do so. Using composted feces as fertilizer does just that.

 Also, I do believe that livestock feces used to be mixed into mortar, at least some of the time-I could be wrong on that one. Once constructions become destructible, mortar and mortar strength might become a real issue, and this could have an effect on it. It would definitely be better than having no mortar at all. There is also the fact that decomposition does produce methane gas-which could build up to lethal concentrations if it gets trapped with no way to escape (incidentally, methane is odorless: they add hydrogen sulfide to give natural gas-that is, methane-an odor so you can tell when there's a leak). Much like gas pockets in mines, a methane explosion could occur if a heat source (flaming arrow, fire snake, imp, SoF) gets in contact with it.

As a poison, not so much-alcohol is a great disinfectant (in fact, natural production usually stops when it builds up to a high enough level to kill the yeast/microbes making it), so if the army brings along strong booze they might be able to mitigate the damage somewhat. Of course, given conditions in battlefield camps...that might not matter, they might die of an unrelated infection just from wounds caused by the trap.

 I would actually say the management part is almost mandatory-as is, when a siege comes and I can't fight it off (read:crippled military and 40+ orcs), I just lock the doors and boom! I'm self sufficient for the season. Waste management would add a new dimension to that-if I need to manage waste and don't have a proper sewer system, then I NEED to find a way to deal with those orcs. This would also make aquifers even MORE challenging-microbes can contaminate an aquifer, though the spread is slower than with flowing surface or stagnant water. This would mean you would have to devise a management system that did NOT contaminate the aquifer in the long term...not just channel into it and make it your waste holder.Make obsidian water tunnels filled by a floodgate into the aquifer and drained by a floodgate into the river/pumped into the river...Really now, you could even incorporate it into a megaproject.

 Contamination could also affect what fish you can catch in rivers. For instance, carp have a high tolerance for water contamination, and can deal with most levels of contamination-except when there's so much waste the water becomes almost completely depleted of oxygen. This means that as other fish are pushed out, carp can thrive. Other, like trout, NEED clean, high oxygen water or they can die-meaning less fish for you to catch. I'll post a more detailed post on this particular topic later, but you actually get gradients along which you'll find certain fish and other aquatic organism, directly dependent on the oxygen level of the water and contamination.
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From Mr. Welch's 1350 things he is not allowed to do in a RPG:
148. There is no Gnomish Deathgrip, and even if there was, it wouldn't involve tongs.
171. My character's dying words are not allowed to be "Hastur, Hastur, Hastur"
218. No matter my alignment, organizing halfling pit fights is a violation.
231. I am not allowed to do anything that would make a Sith Lord cry.
240. Any character with more than three skills specializing in chainsaw is vetoed.

decius

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Re: A suggestion on poop handling
« Reply #42 on: May 25, 2009, 03:34:59 pm »

...
There is also the fact that decomposition does produce methane gas-which could build up to lethal concentrations if it gets trapped with no way to escape (incidentally, methane is odorless: they add hydrogen sulfide to give natural gas-that is, methane-an odor so you can tell when there's a leak).
...
Except that putting feces in water and letting it rot produces H2[S, Hydrogen Sulfide, which smells like rotting feces at low concentrations, destroys the ability to smell anything at all at moderate concentrations, and is toxic at high concentrations. The methane odorant is t-butyl mercaptan, which smells more like old cabbage and is also toxic.

Methane, however is not dangerous to breathe until it starts displacing oxygen. It is dangerous for explosive reasons.

Given how badly you missed the facts on sewage and mining gases, I'm not sure anything else in that wall of text is valid...


On topic: Properly modeling feces means properly modeling food. If I ate nothing but dwarven syrup roasts made of dwarven syrup, dwarven syrup, dwarven syrup, and dwarven syrup, they will be different than if I ate nothing but deer meat.
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TBH, I think that all dwarf fortress problem solving falls either on the "Rube Goldberg" method, or the "pharaonic" one.
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Krash

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Re: A suggestion on poop handling
« Reply #43 on: May 26, 2009, 03:38:46 am »

I can live without poop in DF
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Quift

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Re: A suggestion on poop handling
« Reply #44 on: May 26, 2009, 04:35:26 am »

The compost might be the easiet solution. Dwarves poop in chamberpots, or in latrines, and the Poo is then transfered to the compost pile where it is left to decompose into manure/fertilizer. This would of course require an outdoor stockpile, aswell as a lot of hauling. So some other implementation would be done later on to allow dwarves do never go outside during sieges, aswell as minimize poop handling. Hence, the sewage system. I think that in ancient sewages the sewage itself was just dropped into a nearby river. This of course had an impact on the drinking water, but then again dysenteri was rampant.

And the reason to include poo is not only because it is fun to solve practical problems, but also because diseases should be a bigger part of the game at some point.
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