Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Sergius]

It's come to my attention that I am clearly using incorrect minecraft terminology, resulting in consistent, massive communication failure between myself and other miencraft players.

Would somebody explain to me the proper minecraft terminology to communicate the following concept, in the context of a multi-player server:

Vanilla means absolutely nothing except "no mods". I'm not sure if "bukkit with plugins" even count as mods, but since you can use a vanilla client to connect I assume they don't. So, you can play "vanilla" but have custom borders, color coded chats and protection landmarks, or even world editing...
By the way, the current version of the vanilla game now has border functionality.
Survival is merely the game mode. In single player this is straightforward since the mode is whatever the only person playing is using, in MP it's not, since you can have an admin that can enable Creative Mode to help with bugs, or "creators" that can use creative mode to make some landmarks. So, in that context, I guess it just applies to the rabble.
So basically: everyone is on creative mode = Creative | a minority of people are in creative mode = Survival


There is absolutely no justification for calling a game using Forge or jar injection or jar editing "vanilla" or "unmodded". For the rest, anything goes, even Survival is a relative term.

EDIT: There used to be a time where "survival" just meant that there were monsters that could kill you. For a long time there was no way to play "survival" in a server, as monsters couldn't spawn in multiplayer, even tho it wasn't "creative" either.

[Elephant Parade]

Vanilla is no mods- plugins don't count.
No ruleset is anarchy
No worldborders- again, no plugins/rules
No creative- Loads of servers don't do this except for admins who need to get about easily to analyse griefing. Or, in the case of bad servers, to be griefers.

Basically, if you want it in an out-of-the-box state, then just go and look for a vanilla anarchy server.

Unfortunately, a lot of "vanilla anarchy servers" use command blocks.

[Aklyon]

Well, I could set my plain server back up if you wanted something with nothing but the current vanilla version, but since LB is asking how to phrase what he's looking for, I'm assuming he's looking for a server thats already there and has people on it.

[GavJ]

Vanilla is not referring to what you want, because people mean vanilla to imply you don't have to download a special client.

If you want vanilla gameplay itself, say "Zero mods, zero plugins."

Also, people might just be confused because no mods, no plugins is usually a terrible terrible terrible multiplayer experience.

Kind of like "I would like glass in my water" people will just assume you meant water in a glass, not broken shards of glass in your water, because that would be horrible, and it's more likely you just misspoke. Similar to that.

[Aklyon]

He also doesn't want command block shenanigans.

[LordBucket]

Well, I could set my plain server back up if you wanted something with nothing but the current vanilla version, but since LB is asking how to phrase what he's looking for, I'm assuming he's looking for a server thats already there and has people on it.

Well, yes I do want people to play with. Something like Forksaken's vanilla server, just with more players. I enjoyed that while it was up, but going weeks at a time without ever seeing anybody wasn't what I was looking for.

Really, the ideal server would be fresh, plain, vanilla, pve and with about 20 people who all more or less know each other all starting at the same time and playing actively so that it's common for there to be 3-5 people on at any given time. Something like Hermitcraft, but you have to be a well-known youtuber to be whitelisted there. I would think that bay12 would be the perfect place to find a server like this, but it hasn't turned out that way.

Vanilla is not referring to what you want, because people mean vanilla to imply you don't have to download a special client.

I've finally come to terms with that, but that's not what that word means in any other game. Command blocks, for instance. Yes, I realize that those are a tool in "the vanilla game," but imagine if somebody were playing Morrowind, Skyrim, Neverwinter Nights, any game of that sort. And imagine that they used the construction set that came with the game to create custom content to instantly level up their character when they talk to some npc. Would anybody consider that "vanilla?" Of course not. The fact that the tools to build custom content came with the game doesn't make custom content vanilla.

But with minecraft, people do that sort of thing and still call it vanilla.

just go and look for a vanilla anarchy server.

Unfortunately, a lot of "vanilla anarchy servers" use command blocks.

This nicely demonstrates what I'm saying. It's not so easy to convey this terribly simple concept to minecraft people, is it? It seems like no matter what combination of words are used, some people have a difficult time wrapping their heads around this very simple of idea of "don't change stuff."

Last night I was talking to somebody who was trying to get me to join Dwarves Vs Zombie. I explained that no, I wanted a "vanilla" server, and he argued with me that it was vanilla. This is a server with custom monsters, a custom crafting systemn, a pre-edited world map, and they play a custom game-within-a-game  with a fixed beginning and ending, and when you die you become a zombie. It became a several minute long argument of him insisting that this was vanilla and me trying to explain that no, that really was not what I meant when I said vanilla.

In any other game in the world, would anybody describe an experience that different from default as "vanilla?" I don't think so. But I run into this all the time with minecraft. And I know I'm not the only person who has this problem. Even here, just a few weeks ago somebody posted a thread saying they were looking for a "regular run of the mill minecraft" server and so somebody recommended a Civcraft server.

No creative- Loads of servers don't do this except for admins who need to get about easily to analyse griefing. Or, in the case of bad servers, to be griefers.

This is another thing I've run into. The last bay12 server I played was advertised as "extreme hardcore vanilla survival" and in fact at one point some of the players were telling me that "normal mode is for pussies" and yet it turned out that they were passing out some sort of console or admin access of some kind. I discovered that after playing for a week when I respawned into a room with a giant zombie, and then shortly afterwards somebody offered to spawn a couple villagers for me. Resulting in a lengthy debate over what qualified as "survival" and "creative."


Seriously...what do you have to say, to get a default, not custom, not modded, not tinkered or tampered with, not edited, no magically poofing stuff into existence kind of experience on a server?

"Unmodded vanilla survival - no bullshit - no borders - no mods"

"Zero mods, zero plugins."

Ok. Thank you. I'll give that a try. Meanwhile, if anyone knows a server to recommend, let me know.

[evilnancyreagan]

You know what they say,

"If you want something done right, do it yourself."

Setting up a Minecraft server is stupid easy, give it a try! 

[GavJ]

The "No command blocks" is probably going to be difficult to find. Because that sort of contradicts "purely vanilla" since it is a rule you're specifying about a vanilla feature that you want people to not use.

So you're asking for "totally vanilla, except in this one way which I don't want it to be vanilla" and I suspect that's going to be very rare. Because most people running truly vanilla servers are going to want to be able to advertise full, unfettered, no-rules-at-all situations.

(Yes I know it's only ops, but new players may want to have the hope that they can become ops and use command blocks, etc.)

[GavJ]

More specifically, the REASON why almost no servers like this exist, or why they're empty if so, is because vanilla is a crap setup for a multiplayer game in minecraft. It's so bad that it's reasonable to conversationally assume people couldn't possibly mean to refer to it when they appear to be doing so:

The vanilla whitelist system is terrible (and that's a plugin or a mod if you want to improve it, which you've specified is not allowed! i.e. with internal passwords, or with guests that can come online in a trial capacity), so either you block everybody and nobody ever plays there, or you let random strangers on and they just wreck everything and start forest fires. There's virtually no chance of building a big cooperative build without some asshole wrecking it inside of 2 days if open to the public.

And the infinite space means it's trivial to go hide a base and never ever be found. Congratulations, you're now playing single player + an unrelated chat program + annoyingly having to walk forever before you even get to your effectively singleplayer game...

And no control over dangerous blocks means it's also pretty easy for another player to ruin everybody else's game everywhere by building, for example, underground mega clock systems that drag everybody down to 1 FPS.

And no backup mods means if any of this happens, you're just screwed.




It really is just truly awful. So nobody plays it... so you can't find any servers. It's sort of like saying "Man, why is it so hard to find a good horse and wooden cart ride to the market these days?"

IMO the ONLY way to ru a fun vanilla server is if you start it with 100% friends you already know well in real life, then make a cooperative town. Even then, there's still a significant chance of somebody getting bored and ripping it all down, especially since they know they can't get caught or found out with no tracking mods...

[Vorthon]

Honestly, ENR's vanilla server's decent. ...At least if it's still vanilla. Not sure if it is.

[GavJ]

If it had enough mods to be constantly vigilant, or advertised only in a very specific community, I could see that maybe.

[LordBucket]

"If you want something done right, do it yourself."

Setting up a Minecraft server is stupid easy, give it a try! 

I'm temped. But there are already too many servers competing for for enough players. Also, the only extra machines I have laying around are laptops with overheating problems, which means buying a new computer.

Honestly, ENR's vanilla server's decent. ...At least if it's still vanilla. Not sure if it is.

The people there are friendly, and it has just the the right number of players: always people online to play with, but not so many as to create lag problems. But apparently it's policy to hand out mod/console/creative/call-it-what-you-will privileges there. So you have a community patting themselves on the back about how hardcore they are, then using the console to create beacons before they'd even built a nether hub, and generally conjuring stuff out of nowhere. EvilNancy was the person I'd mentioned earlier to offered to spawn villagers for me.

I think it's reasonable to suggest that using the console to poof stuff into existence whenever it's convenient is not consistent with "extreme hardcore survival." I mean, I don't particularly need hardcore mode. I was ok with it, but normal mode would have been fine. But I'm not looking for a creative mode experience where when anything is too difficult people just push a button and make it appear.


ENR: You're reading this. Am I wrong? Did I totally misunderstand policy? You guys were placing beacons and giant zombies and things, you did offer to use the console to spawn villagers, you were talking about handing out perma-creative mode to four players for that city thing that was under discussion. I just don't see how you can call that a survival server. Even if technically when the map was generated you selected "survival" mode on the menu, handing out creative/console/etc privileges to build with just doesn't seem consistent with the spirit of what anybody looking for a survival mode server is probably looking for.


Am I wrong here? Does this make sense to anyone? Because this sort of thing keeps coming up on every server I try.

[Aklyon]

As far as I know (combined with a vague knowledge of what I know of the servers my brother has been on), 'Survival' means that you are not in creative by default, and giving away op is about as restricted as the server admins feel like augmented or replaced entirely by plugins. It ranges from 'They have an application form/you have to have been there awhile and not be terrible' all the way down to when my bro got op for being 'the first person to join the server', or so he said.

Its sounding like you're trying to find a slightly arbitrarily pure server in a ocean of variably-relaxed minecraft servery, but not in a bad way if that sounded worse than I thought.

[GavJ]

On my server getting op was more like "Be a really good creative builder and be on the server for like 6 months to a year, and be an intelligent mature person probably in your mid 20s or older, and probably also know how to code java and be online all the time and have a history of organizing large scale successful projects with other members, and be good at playing politics to drop the right hints at the right times." =P

[evilnancyreagan]

The words "extreme" and "hardcore" have never left my lips in the description of our world and are simply a case of selective interpretation. What we are is a survival multi-player server set to hard difficulty with a focus on providing a rogue-like experience and forming a unique legacy written through emergent gameplay.

What we offer our players is a 'get out of jail free' card, "everybody get's one". Players can request one favor to be fulfilled by the admin and at the admin's discretion. These requests are approved on a sliding scale, people who are involved, have been with us for awhile and have contributed positively to our community will be able to request more than someone fresh of the boat. These interventions have been limited to actions such as replacing a lost item or relocating a build, no one has ever been given carte blanche to do as they please (with the exception of our server migration end of the world party, obviously).

You spent a whole day schlepping villagers from the end of God's green Earth only to witness them get zombol'd immediately on arrival, when considering the time and effort you have invested into our world, I'm going to offer to replace those villagers. That's all it is however, an option, one you can chose to exercise or not. Almost all of our players choose not to because, they realize that their survival adventure lies in the journey and not destination. We don't have a problem with cheating or abusing creative mode, not because we have infallible systems or restrictions in place to prevent it but, because our players know that they'd only be cheating themselves and they are vested enough in their world and their fellow players that they care to not devalue the experience of either.

Ultimately, Minecraft is a game and I believe that the function of a game should be to have fun. I foster a community who prefer to invest their energy into having a good time instead of trying to 'win' Minecraft--we are not hosting a competition to see who's the 'best'. In fact our official slogan is, "Losing is fun" because, death, loss and failure inexorably create the adventures that populate the chapters of our world's rich history. No one is "patting themselves on the back" because they have a beacon or because they built some ridiculous automated farm cribbed from youtube but, we are writing books about the ongoing saga of The Pigman Wars and inventing our own, original lore through personal triumphs and tragedies. That's what the success of our server is founded on, awesome people having a good time and sharing the experience with each other.

Once again, I'm sorry we failed to provide the experience you desired but, I feel we were successful in providing the experience that what we do offer. I sincerely wish you the best of luck in finding what you seek.