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[Aqizzar]

If the Guard just patrolled around the edge of the claimed area, then it wouldn't be very useful, as someone could just wait for it to get out of sight, plant some TNT, smack it, then run away and watch it blow.

That is, of course, the tried and true method of dealing with brain-dead guards going back to The Three Musketeers.  I don't see the problem with this arrangement.

And yeah, as long as you're flagging claimed areas and such, I don't see where it's that different to mark patrol routes or stationing areas.  Heck, if you placed them in enemy territory, then if would be like a rally marker, to keep a stream of NPC soldiers moving during battles and stuff.  Sounds pretty awesome to me.

[Calhoun]

Yeah, but why waste valuable resources on useless guards?

I mean, the capability to control a bunch of NPC soldiers sounds cool, according to the mental image I'm getting in my head from that Aqizzar. Sort of an RTS/Minecraft Hybrid. Where you are a Hero unit. Actually, that does sound like fun, but I'm not sure how many NPC's like that the server would be able to handle, assuming they were created.

[Aqizzar]

Boatloads I'm sure, since, technically speaking, the AI controlling a guard wouldn't be more than a couple lines of code removed from monsters.  I haven't noticed lag issues with large numbers of monsters since the early days of Indev.  And yes, making players into hero-esque units in a world-craftable RTS-like game is where I was going with that description.  You and I and everyone knows it's a cool idea.

[dragnar]

I like this post.  ...I hope I have the right link, that's the one with the Alpha Pig, right?

This link has some awesome ideas in it... Anyone else read the settlement totem idea in it? It sounds like a very good way of dealing with the land claim flags. especially since it mentions that anyone could still build things like ladders in the area effected. Meaning realistic sieges would work: In reality digging through a castle wall would be idiotic, but scaling it tends to be relatively easy.

Aqizzar, your idea is awesome.

[Calhoun]

Boatloads I'm sure, since, technically speaking, the AI controlling a guard wouldn't be more than a couple lines of code removed from monsters.  I haven't noticed lag issues with large numbers of monsters since the early days of Indev.  And yes, making players into hero-esque units in a world-craftable RTS-like game is where I was going with that description.  You and I and everyone knows it's a cool idea.

Oh yeah, it's an awesome idea. However, I don't know, Things do tend to slow down a bit if I've got more than one pig spawner churning out pigs after a while. Plus, they would have to be persistant in the game-world so if it was an infinite map they would potentially have to travel between chunks which aren't currently active. Which, I know isn't necessarily difficult to do, but I'm pretty sure it'd require some re-writing of things, as I don't think Notch intended on something like that happening.

[Farce]

I'll post it on the Minecraft forum.

Also shooting dudes just for being on your claim would probably be bad, as then you'd have people sticking claim flags everywhere and just denying whole areas no?  "Get offa mah propertah".  That makes me think you should have settable areas of security, though - so different claim flags, maybe?  Maybe a "restricted" flag that marks no-enter areas like your barracks or the main claim totem thing that sets guards to attack on-sight every non-"citizen", and "city" flags for a normal security area.  A low-security "outskirts" flag could be useful for setting areas for sentries to consider as griefing territory, I suppose, or maybe watching outlying mines or farms?  Maybe make the flags cover less space the lower security they are, so you don't accidentally set the restricted ones too close to outside and a have a zone of killdeath radiating from your house.  Maybe make it stopped by walls?


By patrolling, I sorta meant they'd just wander around randomly like pigs and sheep, just walking everywhere.  Maybe with less jumping up and down in the same area and more just choosing random points to walk to?

The purpose for guards was that in a topic on the Minecraft forum I saw someone say "where can I hire this 24/7 guard service?" thing, in response to... I dunno, something.  Anyway, I'd rather have it be dangerous to attack a place than "impossible" or "slow".  Making it "slow" will still make it completely possible to bust up a place completely if the owner's offline, and making it "impossible" limits interaction with the world and limits the game and stuff - no awesome raiding, only buildan (not to be technical or anything, but remember, it's survival, not creative~) - and opens up all kinds of new griefing - claiming a dudes stuff if he hasn't set one up, claiming a sky platform that pukes lava onto another guys claim, all that stuff.  With the guards, you still leave 'em all the interactions open, but make them risky instead of uncontested (no grief-defense, toughen materials on claim to outsiders) or impossible, and if you're logged out the defense is still effective.  Adding upkeep for the guards (the armor and gold payments) also makes them a scaling resource sink - you still gotta come back and maintain 'em, they're not completely autonomous, and they can increase if you grow your claim - you can mine more guard-gold with five guys than if it's just you, like.

The only problem is repairing damage, I think  If a guy comes and blows a hole in your house, your house doesn't fix itself, so you still have to do that part of home security.  The worker NPC could free you from that, too, but making it able to pathfind properly - patching up non-ground-level stuff or really thick walls - would probably be a challenge/impossible.

[Duke 2.0]

 So while moderating the forums I came upon This Thread. The suggestion itself is a flight of fancy, using very upper-level ideas that would require huge rewrites in the engine code. But what took the cake was a reply he made later on.

 Basically, all technical issues are not issues because I say so.

[Calhoun]

claiming a sky platform that pukes lava onto another guys claim, all that stuff.  With the guards, you still leave 'em all the interactions open, but make them risky instead of uncontested.

I don't see how a guard would make a floating platform to dump lava on your house risky to build.

EDIT:

So while moderating the forums I came upon This Thread. The suggestion itself is a flight of fancy, using very upper-level ideas that would require huge rewrites in the engine code. But what took the cake was a reply he made later on.

 Basically, all technical issues are not issues because I say so.

I lawl'd. It's not totally terrible, I would like to see bigger boats for sure, but, 120 block boats? Get real.

[Farce]

Outskirts flags around base.  Guards watch for dude building something, shoot him up.

(EDIT:  ...I guess?  Well, it's not perfect.  Maybe a high tower with a sentry-archer.)

If you make your outskirts fairly big, then griefer has to build a pillar leagues away and build a skybridge across said leagues high in the sky without falling to dump lava on you.


An NPC block would work pretty well too and require way less complicated whatsits, but there could be problems with it possibly interfering with aesthetics.  Plus, you don't get awesome guards patrolling your halls and animating your village.


Also that guy's "sneak around behind you screamer ghost" sounds awesome.  I'd rather it not do damage, though, it being hilarious is enough.

I would post that in his thread but I cannot find the reply button. 

[Calhoun]

Outskirts flags around base.  Guards watch for dude building something, shoot him up.

If you make your outskirts fairly big, then griefer has to build a pillar leagues away and build a skybridge across said leagues high in the sky without falling to dump lava on you.

It's not that hard to build sky-bridges. Plus, Crouching is something that's supposed to be implemented at one point, which would make it even easier. And, again, It'd be easy to doge at such distances.

[Farce]

I can't imagine someone building across half a chunk to orbital lava bombard you, but...

Oh, how about a really high tower with a sentry archer up on the top?

I suppose there should also be an alert thing, too.  Add a little claim alert icon to the hud, and it could make a noise and flash depending on what's happening at the base or something.  "Dude building something" indicates something the AI probably couldn't deal with; Dude breaking something probably is, right?  Alternatively, the worker NPC earlier could also try to destroy things on the claim that don't match with the saved set up you leave.

That way, if the AI's too stupid to deal with something, you'll know there's a problem and can come deal with it.  If lavadrop guy is there, you can come back out of the mine and just build up and duel him or something.

[Calhoun]

I can't imagine someone building across half a chunk to orbital lava bombard you, but...

Oh, how about a really high tower with a sentry archer up on the top?

I suppose there should also be an alert thing, too.  Add a little claim alert icon to the hud, and it could make a noise and flash depending on what's happening at the base or something.

That way, if the AI's too stupid to deal with something, you can come back out of the mine and just build up and duel him or something.

Well, I don't think someone would either, but, you proposed the scenario! If the Archer tower was too high up, I don't think it'd be useful for combating someone on the ground then, and even if the NPC can target them, The further the range, the easier to dodge. At 10 meters away it's pretty easy to dodge an arrow, at 30, Laughably so.

I suppose a warning would be nice, but it's entirely possible to build a system with redstone as it is, not as easy as just that, but possible.

[Farce]

...Oh yeah, I did, didn't I? 

I have trouble with leaning over edges to put stuff down.  It's slow going and I tend to drop occasionally.

Also I edited that post.    I tend to edit posts post-posting after I post a lot.


I could only imagine building a single-tile bridge in a timely fashion, but even with room to dodge, I don't think you could dodge, build, AND not fall, AND possibly on a time limit before another player (or players) come to defend themselves.  If you can... well... goddamn, I guess that's a shit-ruining well earned.  Griefer defeats your security setup, I guess he gets to grief.


Now I'm thinking all claims should be blocked by walls but extend up.  If an outskirt flag only covers a limited distance into the air, the lava drop could possibly be made easy if you start off their claim and then build high enough off the ground that you're out of the alert range.  This'll make sure that guards will freak if they see you in their airspace.  At the same time, it's not really fair to claim all the ground under you - plus it would be silly to make you technically a "criminal" for wandering/mining under a town you might not be aware of, and annoying to get killed for doing so, if a guard wanders around in the caves for some reason - so it should be blocked by terrain.  That might make problems building houses and rooms, though - dude builds a basement, suddenly it's neutral territory.

Also I'm not sure how flags should be.  If you make them real, physical objects, like an actual "THIS IS MY LAND" flag, it'd probably be easy to break outskirts claims.  Making a special "edit claims" seems like it would work, but placing invisible, unseen flags around seems silly.

Guards should probably have the ability to reset claims.  If an enemy takes some area, they should reclaim the place if they can beat him up and drive him away, no?  But that'd probably be hard, requiring something like the worker guy I proposed.


Also, I'm wondering how to customize guards.  If you're a house is an isolated cliff fort or something, human-like guards running around could be a little weird.

I don't know if reskins would work, either, since they'd still look humany to outsiders, right?

Then I remembered Notch wants magic.  Use magic instead, create impguards or something.

A flying worker unit would be cool, plus he could deconstruct that lava skybridge.  A flying guard monster would knock him off~

[Calhoun]

Well, Again, I think the whole land-claim flag concept really needs a lot of work, And nobody can say how it's going to end up without some extensive play-testing.

The key to succesfully building the sky platfrom (even if you are getting shot at) Is to , 1) Remove blocks behind you so somebody can't just come up and knock you down, 2) When the archer shoots, you shouldn't be on the edge, once the arrow is released, move to the edge and place the next block. So on and so forth, until you are above your target, which, at that point, the archer probably can't even hit you (Blocked by your blocks). Then just make a small platform and watch the lava rain down.

If there were NPC guards, there would be something to set them apart aside form the skin (Like an *NPC* Tag where the name would go).  I don't think claiming a place should give you all the air above it though. Lets say you are at the bottom of an overhang and someone wants to build above you. (the vertical distance is about 60 or so blocks. I think that person should very reasonably be allowed to build there.

Personally, I'd probably maintain a small, out-of-they way underground base a moderate distance away from whatever settlement, but also have a home in it. That way I have a (relativity secure, but more importantly hidden.) Place to work from/store stuff. However, I can still maintain a presence in town. That base would also link up to my mine (The entrance being a straight vertical shaft with a ladder.) I go down as far as possible, and just start mining from there. I'd also make an effort to conceal the shaft from any cave systems I happened to encounter along the way.

But again, SMP isn't out, We don't know how exactly it will function. However, I eagerly await it, for better or for worse.

[Farce]

Problem with lava drops is that lava is sloooooow. It'd never fall in time to be of any real use. You'd probably be better off pouring water over a bridge filled with holes in the hopes that it catches someone by surprise and pushes them into a chasm below or something.

That's the thing, though.

Someone linked a stream someplace in here days ago, and I watched this guy playing.  He put a lava source on a tree, and even after he eliminated the source the lava pillar was there for like days.  Once you nuke a town with lava, it's nuked good.

Also, I hadn't thought about that Calhoun.  It's a problem... how do you make that innocuous building differ from malevolent building?  I haven't any ideas for that one. 

Optionally you could just say that cliff edge's airspace is yours anyway.  I mean, it'd be blocking your sun.  Don't people do that with neighbor's trees, anyway?  On a slightly similar note, if he dug through the overhang and made a hole that led from his territory into yours, you could claim it a breach of sovereignty or... I dunno, whatever.

Overlapping claims would be strange. they could be contested, in which case that response guard team would be like an army - side 1's player could go dig something and if the other side notices, then side 2 would send over it's response guards... and then the other side would send IT'S response guards.  Army fight!

At the same time, the two territories could be bros, sharing the land.  What then?

And what happens when city 2 builds on city 1's turf, and that worker comes out to reset that change to it's stored blueprint?