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[mattie2009]

GUYS

HAVE YOU SEEN IT

CHECK THE BLOG

IT'S FUCKING AWESOME

[quinnr]

It's a picture of a hardly playable SMP?
And a promise of top secret invites to active peeps?

Read that this morning already

[Duke 2.0]

EDIT: Plus to effectively destroy in SMP, the greifer would have to make a measurable amount of involvement in the game, to get the proper tools and what-not. It's not like some wouldn't, but your casual greifer isn't the kind of person to do that.

See, this is where I find an issue with SMP. It does not take long at all to get the resources necessary to rip down a structure. Iron you can get within the first two days and stone tools alone are enough to tunnel through a thin wall of obsidian in around a minute. Players do need to be able to easily tunnel through the landscape but tunneling into peoples crap should not be this easy.

[Calhoun]

EDIT: Plus to effectively destroy in SMP, the greifer would have to make a measurable amount of involvement in the game, to get the proper tools and what-not. It's not like some wouldn't, but your casual greifer isn't the kind of person to do that.

See, this is where I find an issue with SMP. It does not take long at all to get the resources necessary to rip down a structure. Iron you can get within the first two days and stone tools alone are enough to tunnel through a thin wall of obsidian in around a minute. Players do need to be able to easily tunnel through the landscape but tunneling into peoples crap should not be this easy.

But we're talking about greifers. What person is going to really want to spend that time just to cause a bit of hassle for one person? People who are greifers tend to just want to get in, cause a bunch of damage, watch the Lulz, and get out. And If there is competent administration on the server, one person slowly dismantling someones house is going to be taken care of in a relatively short amount of time.

It's easy on creative, because 1) You don't have to pay for the game, and 2) things can all be torn down with equal speed. Tearing down a cobblestone wall completely with no tools is a very time-consuming process, getting the tools to tear down cobblestone doesn't take to long, but again, wreaking havoc on a large scale is a lot harder. And it won't go unnoticed for very long that someone is doing that.

EDIT:
If 10% of people who play minecraft are greifers, and 10.8% (We'll say 11%) have payed for it, then only 1.1% of people who have payed are greifers, then there are 322 greifers ready to go for SMP. That isn't very much compared to general population.

EDIT 2: Currently there are 438 servers with (lets just say) an average of 18 player slots. That ends up being a capacity for 7884 players. Ignoring proportions, that means if server capacity was the same, and all the griefers were active that's a total of around 4% greifers. Still not very much.

[Akroma]

I may point out that even the bay12 servers always had greifers, even after reasonableman started to only hand them out on PM towards trusted people




unless there is a way to confirm who caused the grief, moderation is useless




land-claim flags are absolutely necessary, else it will be as duke said, houses will just be markers for loot




the game would only be about who can hide is place the best, everybody working in isolation. fuck that

[Vattic]

Heh, the still picture on his blog looks better than the stream he did yesterday but it was still cool to see things in motion.

Here's a list of things Notch mentioned during the stream. http://dl.dropbox.com/u/8814926/Notch%20on%20Livestream.txt

As for epic PvP there are a few things Notch mentioned that might help.

seige weapons
different tiers of arrows (Tnt arrows)
Rituals confirmed, such as summoning large creeper armies.

I am in favour of land claim flags for the most part, it would be nice if it worked a little like Heaven and Hearth where you can mess with other peoples things but you leave clues that point back to you when you do it. It doesn't even need to work exactly like H&H but I'd like to see some formal structure that supports this kind of game play.

Hopefully with the ability to backup and reload chunks some servers will disable claim flags, ban griefers and undo any damage but still allow for people to RP with in house rules. Maybe it would be a good idea for Notch to implement logs of who did what in which chunks to help with moderation?

There is one worry I have for land claiming. What happens if I'm in a claimed bit of land and I get stuck in a 2 tile deep pit?

[Calhoun]

I may point out that even the bay12 servers always had greifers, even after reasonableman started to only hand them out on PM towards trusted people

unless there is a way to confirm who caused the grief, moderation is useless

land-claim flags are absolutely necessary, else it will be as duke said, houses will just be markers for loot

the game would only be about who can hide is place the best, everybody working in isolation. fuck that

If someone's tearing down structures, and there are at least a few people on the server, they are going to see it. I can't see anyone from the community here greifing on our community server, so it's not like it'd be hard to tell who did it.

I can't give any statistics here, but I'd be willing to bet that most of those greifers are people who haven't payed for the game and don't give two shits about and just want to have fun pissing you off.

EDIT:

There is one worry I have for land claiming. What happens if I'm in a claimed bit of land and I get stuck in a 2 tile deep pit?

There are worse possibilities, say someone goes and claims all the land not already claimed. Or say someone claims the land you were building on, but didn't yet have a land-claim flag of your own yet.

Land-claim flags could be used FOR greifing. It wouldn't be EASY, but it's more then possible.

EDIT2: I guess i can extrapolate SOME statistics.

A Poll on the forums, of which 543 people responded to, has 53 people claiming they will greif. Which is 10%. That's pretty a pretty bleak number, however, this is an anonymous poll. Another poll with 104 respondents, 8 of them said they would be terrorists, Making an obvious connection, that puts it at roughly 8%, still pretty bad. I tried to find a thread someone started where he essentially said; I plan on destroying and killing with no obvious personal gains, who else does? However, I can't seem to find it now, Personally I think that would better represent the situation, as that would require people to actually state that they plan on greifing.

[Aqizzar]

I have a comment.  You coming back to this idea that paying money for Alpha ensures a better clientele, because they're invested in it, or something.  The Something Awful forums, where griefers breed, charge a $10 membership fee, that they have to repay all the time because of their schizophrenic moderators.  Just because someone paid money to play Alpha doesn't make them any less likely to be a jerk than in Creative.  Heck, I'd be surprised if you don't still see grief-bots in Alpha too.

[Cheeetar]

If 10% of people who play minecraft are griefers, and 10.8% (We'll say 11%) have payed for it, then only 1.1% of people who have payed are griefers, then there are 322 griefers ready to go for SMP. That isn't very much compared to general population.

No, that's not how numbers work. You're saying that because 11% of people payed and 10% of people grief, only 10% of payers are griefers. That's wrong, and even if it were right, that would mean 10% of people who payed were griefers (2930 griefers), not 1.1%.

[Sir Pseudonymous]

Has anyone actually even seen "grief-bots" in creative to begin with? All this psychotic paranoia over griefing is sickening. "We must behave in insane, antisocial manners because GRIEFERS!!!!111!!!11!!1111!1!" 

You're talking about a game that costs money, and that will cost an absurd amount of money before multiplayer is released, in which it would take a considerable investment of time to damage someone else's constructions. Especially if the server's private (and with the new fluids), there's essentially no chance of meaningful damage occurring.

[Cheeetar]

Well, I've seen people running around in Creative taking chunks out of everything and generally being douchebags.

[MagmaDeath]

Well, I've seen people running around in Creative taking chunks out of everything and generally being douchebags.

And thats basically all there was.
I mean, flooding the map was a common thing as well, but you really cant do much to something, without working for quite a bit.
Even moreso in survival.

[Aqizzar]

Probably the easiest form of griefing in Alpha would be finding a tall point near people's stuff, or somebody's building, and placing several water springs on top of it, so the springs duplicate in the area and create a cascade of water that would be very time consuming to remove.  All that would require is a few buckets, and you could probably steal those.

Just tossing a possible scenario about it.  I have no particular concern about rampant unstoppable griefing or anything, unless it's actually possible to alter server data en masse from a client, but let's be realistic about this stuff.

UPDATE: Also-

I won’t work on MP more this week, except perhaps try to fix those two bugs. Next week I’ll add inventory/chest management to the multiplayer and possibly dropped items, and there will be invite only public testing going on next week. When that works ok, I will release a very early public version of survival mode multiplayer so people can try it.

So, in a perfect universe, the horribly buggy first release of Multiplayer Alpha will drop in two weeks.  Mark your calendars.

[debvon]

Friday update 5:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

1. Held items are visibile in third person (and in inventory screen?)
2. Boats. Place wood in an U shape
3. "Massive trees"
4. Snowballs stack to 16
5. Cacti?

Still waiting for more to be uncovered, will update as they're found and posted.

[Aqizzar]

How nice, I was just thinking about making a boat for no particular reason, and remembered wistfully that they can't do anything.  But now, rowboats.  Awesome.