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Author Topic: Minecraft - It has blocks.  (Read 2443452 times)

Jay

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Re: Minecraft - It has blocks.
« Reply #7980 on: March 14, 2011, 11:54:07 am »

Too much, IMO. Especially if that time is mixed up with "real" development time.
Uh.  In development terms, that's a damn short amount of time, for the amount of content that he wants to add.
Would you get mad if Toady said DF would be at 1.0 a year from now?

Granted, the difference is that Toady actually tells us what he wants to add, and Notch has two programmers compared to Toady being one, but...
According to those posts, Notch considers the game pretty much complete (does that mean he isn't going to update mod API etc?) and he's only going to be building on current features.
Is this HUGE MISUNDERSTANDING day or something?

He said nothing of the sort in either of those posts.
Hell, he even said that 50% of the dev time is going to be entirely new content.
The simple fact that those minor releases are considered worthy of a +.1 should tell you enough about development to be extremely disappointed.
His version numbering just sucks.

Pessimism is one thing.  Kneejerking is another.
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poca

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Re: Minecraft - It has blocks.
« Reply #7981 on: March 14, 2011, 12:12:40 pm »

Jay made some good points so I'll just add a couple observations. Notch isn't great at at basic math and science. His version numbering isn't very consistent at all but 1.2 seemed rather substantial to me because it added dyes and colored wool.


does that mean he isn't going to update mod API etc?

You should really read those posts (again?) because everything you said is contradicted.

Quote from: Notch
The first two big points were, in order of priority, “New save file format”, and “Add mod support”.

In 1.3 he did the first by incorporating the McRegion mod into the official Minecraft code base. So I don't see any reason to doubt that he will be getting to mod support next. Everything in Minecraft has rather large gotchas so I'm still kind of skeptical about the quality of mod support.
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Farseer

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Re: Minecraft - It has blocks.
« Reply #7982 on: March 14, 2011, 12:34:37 pm »

Uh.  In development terms, that's a damn short amount of time, for the amount of content that he wants to add.
Would you get mad if Toady said DF would be at 1.0 a year from now?

So you're saying that having 50% of your time dedicated to fluff crap isn't wasted time?

Hell, he even said that 50% of the dev time is going to be entirely new content.

Again, fluff crap is not really entire new content.

BigD145

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Re: Minecraft - It has blocks.
« Reply #7983 on: March 14, 2011, 12:52:20 pm »

Hell, he even said that 50% of the dev time is going to be entirely new content.

Again, fluff crap is not really entire new content.

Wood half steps (slabs) were little more than a copy/pasta reskin. Not new and not really asked for.

Quote from: Mincraft Wiki
Wooden slabs are not flammable and have to be destroyed by a pick to drop something, possibly due to the fact that they share the same data value as other slabs.
Copied and pasted!
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Andir

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Re: Minecraft - It has blocks.
« Reply #7984 on: March 14, 2011, 12:55:32 pm »

Uh.  In development terms, that's a damn short amount of time, for the amount of content that he wants to add.
Would you get mad if Toady said DF would be at 1.0 a year from now?

So you're saying that having 50% of your time dedicated to fluff crap isn't wasted time?

Speaking as a Professional Developer...

If I was given 50% of my time to work on whatever I wanted... I'd have some cool things to present to Notch.  It's awesome to be able to experiment and learn things, especially if the person signing your paychecks lets you do it.

Remind me to never work for you.  You feel like the type of person that would be a slave driver wanting everyone to work on your whims for a full 10 hours a day, 7 days a week.
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Farseer

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Re: Minecraft - It has blocks.
« Reply #7985 on: March 14, 2011, 01:32:17 pm »

Speaking as a Professional Developer...

If I was given 50% of my time to work on whatever I wanted... I'd have some cool things to present to Notch.  It's awesome to be able to experiment and learn things, especially if the person signing your paychecks lets you do it.

Isn't Notch the ONLY programmer working on Minecraft?

Basically, he's alotting 50% of his time to working on fluff crap when he could be doing something that people actually want... Like mod support. Or multiplayer and singleplayer functionality integration (which is mod support since there are a bunch of multiplayer only mods and a bunch of singleplayer only mods because of the difficulty in conversion).

Remind me to never work for you.  You feel like the type of person that would be a slave driver wanting everyone to work on your whims for a full 10 hours a day, 7 days a week.

WOW! I'd expect people to WORK while they're at their JOB. Holy shit, I am such a terrible person.

freeformschooler

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Re: Minecraft - It has blocks.
« Reply #7986 on: March 14, 2011, 02:28:41 pm »

Speaking as a Professional Developer...

If I was given 50% of my time to work on whatever I wanted... I'd have some cool things to present to Notch.  It's awesome to be able to experiment and learn things, especially if the person signing your paychecks lets you do it.

Isn't Notch the ONLY programmer working on Minecraft?

No. Jeb also is a programmer.

Remind me to never work for you.  You feel like the type of person that would be a slave driver wanting everyone to work on your whims for a full 10 hours a day, 7 days a week.

WOW! I'd expect people to WORK while they're at their JOB. Holy shit, I am such a terrible person.

The only problem with your logic here is that that 50% "fluff time" on their job is just that -- on the job time, but outside of the stricter development goals they're working towards which they've laid out. That 50% of the time is probably not spend 100% goofing off -- much more likely adding little things outside of the main programming goals for the day, and handling business. 'Course I don't know for sure, they could be goofing off, but given what's been said here and what Notch has said in the past I find it far more likely that this is the reason we have things like built in Redstone delay gates now. Notch talked about this a good while ago, around the same time he posted a photo of their "development organization system" :P some of it is gone from my memory now, though, since that was before they had the team they do now.

I should probably note that otherwise I agree with you in that 50% of the time they have might be a little too much free time, but what can I say I don't know, I've never been to their company and neither have you.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2011, 02:31:49 pm by freeformschooler »
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Farseer

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Re: Minecraft - It has blocks.
« Reply #7987 on: March 14, 2011, 02:40:33 pm »

No. Jeb also is a programmer.

The only problem with your logic here is that that 50% "fluff time" on their job is just that -- on the job time, but outside of the stricter development goals they're working towards which they've laid out. That 50% of the time is probably not spend 100% goofing off -- much more likely adding little things outside of the main programming goals for the day, and handling business. 'Course I don't know for sure, they could be goofing off, but given what's been said here and what Notch has said in the past I find it far more likely that this is the reason we have things like built in Redstone delay gates now. Notch talked about this a good while ago, around the same time he posted a photo of their "development organization system" :P some of it is gone from my memory now, though, since that was before they had the team they do now.

I should probably note that otherwise I agree with you in that 50% of the time they have might be a little too much free time, but what can I say I don't know, I've never been to their company and neither have you.

Eh, what does he program, though?

I'd say that redstone delay gates are necessary, to be honest. :p Not just for the circuit functionality, but for extension of the redstone lines themselves. It's better than building a bunch of double not gates, at least. To me, they don't really count as fluff. Note blocks are fluff, because they have very (very) limited usefulness as a general thing and weren't really requested.

I suspect they don't do much work in general, if they produce this little fluff with 50% fluff time. :p

eerr

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Re: Minecraft - It has blocks.
« Reply #7988 on: March 14, 2011, 03:36:12 pm »

I suspect they don't get much done because you can't build a game engine four-ways at once.

To be efficient, only two people can do that at a time, tops.
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Thexor

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Re: Minecraft - It has blocks.
« Reply #7989 on: March 14, 2011, 03:55:37 pm »

Wait wait wait... one page ago, you were complaining that Notch "considers the game feature-complete" (lolwut?), and that he's not adding any new features that people want, instead resorting to copy-pastes of existing blocks.

Then, it's pointed out that 50% of development time has been explicitly set aside for the express purpose of designing new, interesting features.

Now you're complaining that Notch is "wasting 50% of his development time on fluff."

So, which is it? Should Notch spend 50% of his time designing new, interesting features (referred to as "fluff" when it supports your pessimism)? Or should he spend all his time refining the engine without adding any new material? Does it only count as "non-fluff" if you like what Notch adds?


Development takes time. I know this is a real shocker, and... wait a second, we're DF players. DF has been in production for how long now? And you're complaining that 3 months, or even a year, is too long to spend? Yes, comparisons between DF and Minecraft are vaguely like comparing apples and oranges, but there's at least some validity to such a comparison. Notch is currently working on modding support; bearing in mind the complexity of mods already produced, this is huge. DF has nothing of the sort; raw modification is a dim reflection of the modding capacity that Minecraft already has - see mods that add new creature AI and behaviour, or grappling hooks, or dozens of other features completely removed from unmodded gameplay, and compare that to DF's ability to modify pre-coded routines with slightly different integer inputs.


The argument that "Notch has money!" also doesn't hold much weight. Notch is still the primary coder - most of his team seems to be based around the other necessities of running a solvent business, such as managing the (flaky) web server, or handling financials. More money does not equal faster development (see "The Mythical Man-hour"). And Notch's update speed is at least on par with most major development studios - if you think that comparisons to DF are unsuitable, consider updates to other commercial releases. Even TF2 has only received a handful of notable updates in the past few months, and they're considered among the best at post-release updates.


Finally, you're basing your opinions mostly off recent development speed. Development has currently been slow, which is largely due to the fact that Notch hasn't been at work - he's been accepting major awards and the like. When Toady was taking 1 week out of every 4 for his 'secret project', we didn't whine and complain. And the fact that Notch takes fairly long breaks from development should come as no surprise, given his track record. Once work re-begins in earnest, I fully expect to see changes similar in scope to the development of the Nether and the rest of the Halloween update.
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freeformschooler

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Re: Minecraft - It has blocks.
« Reply #7990 on: March 14, 2011, 04:02:02 pm »

@Thexor: No, the complaint is that the supposed 50% fluff time is supposedly wasteful free time around the office where they goof off, and if they spent all of that time adding unnecessary or necessary features they'd like to add, again supposedly people wouldn't be complaining but I don't know, people are always going to complain about Minecraft's development, just like they're going to complain about DF's development and Cortex Command's development and so on. Not every programmer's/team's development style suits the eyes of every person who hears about it. Most won't. I find useless complaining to be a fun sport, though.

Like for instance, most of your arguments are probably very valid in your eyes as well as others (including mine), but they're not changing anyone at Mojang's mind. However, didn't it feel good to join in on complaining about people complaining basically forever? It's escapism, I tell ya, just like games.

Also I'm not really sure what Jeb actually programs. I just know that he talks about what he supposedly fixed and added (the small details that is) on his Twitter, and he's the one that gets most of the fire when a feature doesn't work.

This has been a highly successful complainathon.
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iceball3

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Re: Minecraft - It has blocks.
« Reply #7991 on: March 14, 2011, 04:17:07 pm »

I'd say that redstone delay gates are necessary, to be honest. :p Not just for the circuit functionality, but for extension of the redstone lines themselves. It's better than building a bunch of double not gates, at least. To me, they don't really count as fluff. Note blocks are fluff, because they have very (very) limited usefulness as a general thing and weren't really requested.
Define "useful".
Because really, they are EXACTLY as useful as the Redstone repeater/whatever you call that. Sure it doesn't make redstone circuitry easier but it gives more of a reason to do so. The repeater doesn't give much of a reason to screw with redstone dust, but removes some of the reason's not to.
So yah. Your opinion is your opinion and such, but remember it is still kinda of constrained in convincing others, to say the least.
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0x517A5D

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Re: Minecraft - It has blocks.
« Reply #7992 on: March 14, 2011, 04:17:36 pm »

The amount of unwarranted entitlement by certain posters in this thread is astonishing.  You complainers bought the game "as-is".  The license said so, not in lawyer-speak, but plainly.  And you agreed to the license.

After four years on this forum, I've just been driven to figure out an ignore-poster mod.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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Thexor

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Re: Minecraft - It has blocks.
« Reply #7993 on: March 14, 2011, 04:20:17 pm »

"50% supposedly wasteful free time" is something that was invented in this thread, near as I can tell. "50% of the development time in Minecraft towards adding fun new stuff" is what Notch said. There's a very, very big difference there, which is what I was trying to point out.  ;)

And yeah, there's something cathartic about complaining, and about complaining about complaining. Honestly, I usually prefer to avoid combat, but hey, sometimes the targets are just too inviting to pass up. If things get too heated, I'm sure someone will come in to break up the fight. Just at the moment, though, the argument seems to be at simmering at low heat instead of bursting into flame, so I don't see any real problem. And a forum would be pretty boring (not to mention fanboy-ish) if nobody ever disagreed with each other.
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Farseer

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Re: Minecraft - It has blocks.
« Reply #7994 on: March 14, 2011, 04:34:46 pm »

The amount of unwarranted entitlement by certain posters in this thread is astonishing.  You complainers bought the game "as-is".  The license said so, not in lawyer-speak, but plainly.  And you agreed to the license.

So you're saying that we haven't paid for the full product (we have, in fact - if you read the license agreement, paid for the end result not the current beta, this is how it's worded), but have paid for the current version? This isn't Unreal World, man.

Hell, it clearly says on the main page, "Pre-order the game!"

Wait wait wait... one page ago, you were complaining that Notch "considers the game feature-complete" (lolwut?), and that he's not adding any new features that people want, instead resorting to copy-pastes of existing blocks.

Then, it's pointed out that 50% of development time has been explicitly set aside for the express purpose of designing new, interesting features.

Now you're complaining that Notch is "wasting 50% of his development time on fluff."

So, which is it? Should Notch spend 50% of his time designing new, interesting features (referred to as "fluff" when it supports your pessimism)? Or should he spend all his time refining the engine without adding any new material? Does it only count as "non-fluff" if you like what Notch adds?

Are you saying that a single creature added is a "feature"? Really? A feature to me is an entirely new aspect of gameplay, or an another aspect of the engine or another aspect of etc etc. The entire caravan arc in DF is the creation of an entirely new feature. The army arc was the introduction of a bunch of features and refinement of gameplay. Etc etc.

Fluff are minor pursuits that are not directly related to gameplay. Single quests in RPGs, an extra character in an FPS, another creature behaviour in DF.

What Notch means by "interesting things" is that he's doing stuff like note blocks. Who actually uses note blocks?

Development takes time. I know this is a real shocker, and... wait a second, we're DF players. DF has been in production for how long now? And you're complaining that 3 months, or even a year, is too long to spend? Yes, comparisons between DF and Minecraft are vaguely like comparing apples and oranges, but there's at least some validity to such a comparison. Notch is currently working on modding support; bearing in mind the complexity of mods already produced, this is huge. DF has nothing of the sort; raw modification is a dim reflection of the modding capacity that Minecraft already has - see mods that add new creature AI and behaviour, or grappling hooks, or dozens of other features completely removed from unmodded gameplay, and compare that to DF's ability to modify pre-coded routines with slightly different integer inputs.

Toady regularly implements major features. His modding is complex enough to allow him to put in "fluff" (like the new animals he's doing after the donation drive) to the base game easily without really interrupting the sheer amount of real stuff he shovels through.

You do realise that Minecraft's modding is based off hacking the base code of the game, right? Of course you get that sort of modding functionality when you do that. Look at OBSE (Oblivion Script Extender) for Elder Scrolls : Oblivion. It forced modding functionality by going far beyond the modding tools available.

Toady provides so much stuff already for modding (even if a lot of it is base coded) and it has a massive effect on how gameplay works. Have you even had a look at DF's mod section? There's far more variety and far more stuff than in all of Minecraft's modding sections combined because it allows players to easily mod their game.

The argument that "Notch has money!" also doesn't hold much weight. Notch is still the primary coder - most of his team seems to be based around the other necessities of running a solvent business, such as managing the (flaky) web server, or handling financials. More money does not equal faster development (see "The Mythical Man-hour"). And Notch's update speed is at least on par with most major development studios - if you think that comparisons to DF are unsuitable, consider updates to other commercial releases. Even TF2 has only received a handful of notable updates in the past few months, and they're considered among the best at post-release updates.

Of course people work harder when they're going to starve otherwise. Notch is sitting on a big pile of money at the minute and knows it's going nowhere. He's quite happy to slack off, now.

I don't even know what you're trying to argue, here.

Finally, you're basing your opinions mostly off recent development speed. Development has currently been slow, which is largely due to the fact that Notch hasn't been at work - he's been accepting major awards and the like. When Toady was taking 1 week out of every 4 for his 'secret project', we didn't whine and complain. And the fact that Notch takes fairly long breaks from development should come as no surprise, given his track record. Once work re-begins in earnest, I fully expect to see changes similar in scope to the development of the Nether and the rest of the Halloween update.

Toady did a shit tonne of major features. We KNEW major features were coming.

With Notch, it's likely that every update is going to be a disappointment. He's going to come out with pet dogs or something and people will go, "Modders did this ages ago, why didn't you just do mod API instead?"

My point is that this fluff crap is obviously taking too much development time. Who cares about pet dogs or whales (both of which are easily moddable) when he could be doing mod API to allow people to implement these features and more?
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