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Author Topic: DIG DEEPER, V1.4B  (Read 182550 times)

The13thRonin

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Re: Dwarf Fortress [DIG DEEPER 1.01 Release]
« Reply #105 on: June 20, 2009, 08:45:20 pm »

I hate the economy stone thing

I like putting economic stone piles by my masons so they make valuable furniture.

I have not experienced the no trade items with caravans, depot built before or after.

But you can still do that? The Economic Stone Mod simply gives you control over what stone your normal dwarves will use for crafting and such. I found that sometimes when I put MAKE CRAFTS on repeat my dwarves would grab valuable materials and waste them on stupid pursuits leaving me with clay and granite for artifacts and special rooms. Say you want nothing but gold objects for your Kings room... Make everything economic stone except gold and then you can queue up all the objects you want and your dwarves will bypass all the copper and silver and steel to get at your gold reserves NO MATTER WHERE they are positioned in your fortress. You can change what is and isn't economic stone through the ROCK menu near where the STOCKPILE menu is on the status screen showing how many dwarves and food and wealth you have.

Quote
I seem to play a lot like you Jwguy.  I don't like loosing any dwarfs.  Although with this mod installed, I was just thrilled when I only lost one or two.  :)  I personally play DF more for the sandbox than the challenge though.  Not all times but most of the time.

It is still meant to be played as a sandbox  :). It (for me at least) just a little bit of a drag when a siege never made it past your front gate and weren't worthy to fight your fortresses dregs not to mention the champions. With this mod war feels like war... Sure you're outnumbered most of the time... Sure the orcs are tougher... You're a human player with a mind of your own. You can use tactics and fortress slights of hand like pitfalls to beat the AI back. After all... No-one has ever attempted a siege with significantly less firepower than the besieged town/castle... That would be crazy  ;). It helps keep things interesting late game especially.

Quote
If that is the case, 13th Ronin, it'd probably be better that you actually include the details of difficulty in your readme and upload directories. As I said before, I believe I gave them a very thorough run-down, and I believe they are not, but I may be wrong.

It was there... A bit vague but I'll make it more clear and less ambiguous.

Quote
And also, I must disagree on your comment about never expecting my dwarves to take a scratch. I pride myself on being able to come up with strategies that allow my dwarves to never -have- to take anything, as fun as it might be to the otherwise, and as much as I love the ASCII brutality of DF combat. Winning with clever ingenuity and design is just as dwarven as hacking at their necks with an axe. The current fortress, as said, can deal the orcs off with little to no difficulty, whether by killing them, or simply outlasting them. The Fortress is entirely self-sufficient and protected, a goal I had to start on much earlier than usual.

As clever as you are you're going to take causalities. That's war. If you don't like it I'm sorry but I suggest you take another mod. In World War Two which was supposedly one of the West's greatest triumphs the VICTORIOUS side took over 61 million casualties while the LOSING side only took 11 million. No struggle may be won without loss and sacrifice. And no true struggle has ever been easy. This mod aims to do a good deal of things realistically and war is one of these things. Dwarves must fight all the way down their great halls if they are to keep their vast treasures from falling into the wrong hands. And without careful planning many will die. Even with careful planning their will be causalities. War is bloody. If you want to fight off Sieges with a few conscripted wrestlers with no military experience or equipment and suffer no losses then I'm sorry but this is not the mod for you.

I am happy with the fact that you are providing feedback and constructive criticism but when you say things like "this mod has the potential to be great" or "this mod does not reach its full potential" (As seen on the download page) then that kinda rubs me the wrong way. Don't get me wrong... You are allowed to hate this mod and everything in it. I'm alright with that. However I feel that the mod is good and I believe the silent majority also believe this. And I didn't pour tens... Probably even a hundred or two hours into this mod to just fulfill your expectations. If you would like to tweak the mod, I am fine with that. If you would like to make the tweaks available to the wider community also (I give you my blessing) but I will not accept that the mod is bad or 'doesn't fulfill its potential' because you take issue with it. At the end of the day I did what I thought would complete the dwarf fortress experience (in my eyes) and I thought other people might also enjoy it. It clearly isn't everyone's cup of tea but I wasn't aiming at satisfying the entire community when I made it. So please don't make sweeping statements such as "this mod doesn't fulfill its potential when what you're really trying to say is it doesn't meet your individual expectations. With that said I'm not at all trying to attack you or discourage further criticisms and advice. As I said before... I very much appreciate your input and I take everything into consideration.

PS - I am very much aware that the download page and the main page of this thread look like utter crap. If anyone could suggest a new title page, provide a bit of attractive looking code or reorganize things and message me I'd appreciate it and your efforts will be acknowledged on the page and in the README.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2009, 10:49:35 pm by The13thRonin »
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Akreaveter

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Re: Dwarf Fortress [DIG DEEPER 1.01 Release]
« Reply #106 on: June 20, 2009, 11:15:47 pm »

It took them long enough but;  Caravan with wagon showed up, fully stocked.  Elves came back, with their usual lack-of-wagon, and again had nothing.  Maybe something odd happened during worldgen, but who knows?  Not like I want anything from elves anyway.
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Jwguy

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Re: Dwarf Fortress [DIG DEEPER 1.01 Release]
« Reply #107 on: June 21, 2009, 04:11:05 am »

If the economic stone thing is intended, then wonderful. I can understand and appreciate the functionality that is introduced into the game through it, but I was simply unaware of the mod having implemented it, and so it seemed as more of a bug than an actual intention, especially since my "Other Stone" List in my Status menu seemed to lessen over time in items than actually start empty with all of it's contents in the Economic Stone list.

That said,

Quote
As clever as you are you're going to take causalities. That's war. If you don't like it I'm sorry but I suggest you take another mod. In World War Two which was supposedly one of the West's greatest triumphs the VICTORIOUS side took over 61 million casualties while the LOSING side only took 11 million. No struggle may be won without loss and sacrifice. And no true struggle has ever been easy. This mod aims to do a good deal of things realistically and war is one of these things. Dwarves must fight all the way down their great halls if they are to keep their vast treasures from falling into the wrong hands. And without careful planning many will die. Even with careful planning their will be causalities. War is bloody. If you want to fight off Sieges with a few conscripted wrestlers with no military experience or equipment and suffer no losses then I'm sorry but this is not the mod for you.

I am happy with the fact that you are providing feedback and constructive criticism but when you say things like "this mod has the potential to be great" or "this mod does not reach its full potential" (As seen on the download page) then that kinda rubs me the wrong way. Don't get me wrong... You are allowed to hate this mod and everything in it. I'm alright with that. However I feel that the mod is good and I believe the silent majority also believe this. And I didn't pour tens... Probably even a hundred or two hours into this mod to just fulfill your expectations. If you would like to tweak the mod, I am fine with that. If you would like to make the tweaks available to the wider community also (I give you my blessing) but I will not accept that the mod is bad or 'doesn't fulfill its potential' because you take issue with it. At the end of the day I did what I thought would complete the dwarf fortress experience (in my eyes) and I thought other people might also enjoy it. It clearly isn't everyone's cup of tea but I wasn't aiming at satisfying the entire community when I made it. So please don't make sweeping statements such as "this mod doesn't fulfill its potential when what you're really trying to say is it doesn't meet your individual expectations. With that said I'm not at all trying to attack you or discourage further criticisms and advice. As I said before... I very much appreciate your input and I take everything into consideration.

On the first issue, I must disagree. I am fully aware of what war is, and the likely consequences and results of it, and while I would not call myself Sin Tzu, I believe I have more knowledge of it than you give me credit for. Even so, I do not blame you, this being the internet where everyone has ten degrees of science in every field, simply because, and everyone is government agents, etc..

But, even in World War II, which I've more often heard of as poorly campaigned and a tragedy than a "Great Triumph", there was always room for improvement on all sides. None of them lived up to their full potential, and none of them were absolutely perfect. To say that it was impossible to come out of the war without any casualties is a logical assumption, based on experience of how wars usually play out, but it is still an assumption. Assumptions rely on guesswork, and if the condition that they bank on is not fulfilled, they are faulty.

Beyond that, you mention that I wanted to "fight off sieges with a few conscripted wrestlers", or seemed to imply such, which I believe comes from your interpretation of my initial post. Believe it or not, my usual method of defending from sieges comes from Ballistae, Bridge/Magma/Water traps (Obsidianization Traps. Like Carbonite, but better and more fun.), Cage traps, and a sleugh of Well-trained Marksdwarves and Hammerdwarves. I mentioned that I was forced to use the conscripted wrestlers, in so many words, because of the sudden siege and the steep climb of the orc numbers year after year. Each time, the fortress survived, albeit with heavy casualties. I don't mind losing dwarves or getting them injured. "Fun" as losing is, I simply like to test myself with coming up with better designed, both functionally and aesthetically, fortresses with an endgame goal to aid my dwarves to a maximum of never -having- to suffer any attack. I'll still send them out to glorious battle every now and then, or accidentally have a noble fall down a well or pit or chasm.

At this point, I have to point out that I really don't -mind- the orc sieges and their exponentially increasing numbers each year, so much as I mind that this, in my humble designation, -significant- change by the mod was not documented much beyond some vague implications that the orcs were strong enough to swarm megabeasts. Simply put, I look at things as I do when I have one of my designers make something. Being a Level designer for a local game company, as well as occasionally an art director, the paperwork is everything; If something is on the paper, and it is in the game: Wonderful. All milestones and expectations are usually met. If something is on the paper and not in the game: Needs work, as we are missing something we need. Likewise, if something is not on the paper, but is in a game: Needs corrections, as this is a bug.

Your mod has none of the second, that I could see, but the orc sieges were along the last. That's rather good, and personally, saying the mod has "The Potential to be very good, but is not quite there, yet" is not so much as bad thing, that I would consider. My expectations, as you say, were built as I read what the mod contained, as were the rest of your players, I'd imagine. I did expect you to cater to them, because you were the one who detailed what I was expecting in the readme, and I can hardly consider myself or anyone at fault for that. I listed my concerns, frustrated admittedly, on what I thought were bugs due to their nonexistant, or maybe unobvious, or even unseen documentation, as well as their extreme differences from normal gameplay. These combined justified my reasoning to comment and rate as I did. Not because I personally just disliked the mod, or because it beat me (Which you could say it technically did, with my 2 healthy dwarves flailing about angrily while the eight bled to death dragging their intestines along the ground.). It really does look good on paper, or perhaps it would be on LCD, for the current scenario, as that is why I picked it up in the first place, and -will- still be playing it, because I will not allow something this trivial to conquer my ability to progress and be better in the facets that I choose to employ. It is simply my concern that such significant changes or implementations should and must be documented. Knowing that you intended them makes me a little easier about the mod, but that still does not change that it seems to be less than adequately able to communicate this outside of gameplay and suprise! Fun!

Once the criteria of a good mod are met, whether that be by documentation improvement, or content improvement, I will certainly change my rating and comment. I do not intend to shoot you down for the admirable attempt, nor for the mod's performance, but I will comment on it's nature opposed to it's presentation.



With all that out of the way, I also must say that I just encountered a caravan with no items, as well, but that is potentially a different scenario than the other reports here, being from a 'Fae' race that I modded in after installing and testing the mod. (I personally love having many civilizations, making the world more diverse and fun. This is especially why I wanted to see Goblins and Orcs both sieging, though I cannot seem to find the goblins, still) They only have a size of '2', which might explain not being able to craft much or anything, though I am not sure.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2009, 09:29:42 am by Jwguy »
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The13thRonin

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Re: Dwarf Fortress [DIG DEEPER 1.01 Release]
« Reply #108 on: June 21, 2009, 10:27:35 am »

I'm glad we could resolve any ill-feelings towards one-another in a respectful manner Jwguy, one of the many reasons I admire the Bay 12 Forums. It is populated by respectful, intelligent people who can discuss things without it turning into a pissing contest.

I don't need you to change your rating or comment. I guess I just wanted my efforts and work validated.

I will endeavor to provide better documentation in the future and I'll have a serious look into this no-trade-goods bug... It seems like a strange one... I don't think I'm going to be able to find out why it's happening. What animals were 'carrying' the non-existent goods? One immediate alarm-bell that goes off is that I provided new animals which can be loaded with goods (like donkeys) but cannot pull wagons... As such if their is a problem with these animals (like yaks) I might have implemented the wrong tags at some stage and somehow stuffed up their ability to carry objects.

EDIT: WHO DA MAN?

Fixed the trade problem. Needed to add [trADE_CAPACITY:****] to yaks. Seems that the elves and other races were trying to load up the poor creatures but they couldn't take any weight so they came with nothing. I couldn't have solved it without the information you guys provided me, many thanks... I'll release a new version soonish... Within the next few days to fix the problem right up.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2009, 10:42:20 am by The13thRonin »
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Jwguy

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Re: Dwarf Fortress [DIG DEEPER 1.01 Release]
« Reply #109 on: June 21, 2009, 02:18:15 pm »

I am glad as well, and even moreso to hear that any future, similar discussions with others around here will likely be handled just as elegantly.

On another note, I have to ask, is Bloodmetal supposed to be smelt-able? I have a "Native Bloodmetal Nugget", it's origins unknown. (I slaughtered a number of sieging orcs the years before, and was widely digging out stone for use in making blocks for the acropolis of my impregnable fortress. A small portion dipped under where I killed them, but there were no floor tiles with "Rough Bloodmetal Cavern Floor" Or similar that I could see. It's also possible I got it from a trade, as I cannot remember clearly, having simply asked for all metallic ores, alcohol, cages, animals, and fish. (I stockpile. Heavily.)

Regardless, the Smelt option for the metal doesn't appear in the Magma Smelter, and I was curious as to whether it was supposed to be so.
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The13thRonin

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Re: Dwarf Fortress [DIG DEEPER 1.01 Release]
« Reply #110 on: June 21, 2009, 05:58:04 pm »

I am glad as well, and even moreso to hear that any future, similar discussions with others around here will likely be handled just as elegantly.

On another note, I have to ask, is Bloodmetal supposed to be smelt-able? I have a "Native Bloodmetal Nugget", it's origins unknown. (I slaughtered a number of sieging orcs the years before, and was widely digging out stone for use in making blocks for the acropolis of my impregnable fortress. A small portion dipped under where I killed them, but there were no floor tiles with "Rough Bloodmetal Cavern Floor" Or similar that I could see. It's also possible I got it from a trade, as I cannot remember clearly, having simply asked for all metallic ores, alcohol, cages, animals, and fish. (I stockpile. Heavily.)

Regardless, the Smelt option for the metal doesn't appear in the Magma Smelter, and I was curious as to whether it was supposed to be so.

Bloodmetal is working as intended. I just checked it... You can smelt Bloodmetal Bars? Maybe you should go back and double check it?

Orcs are still friendly if you embark on-top of them... At least until the first siege. This problem irks me but I cannot resolve it without adding the baby-snatcher tag which will screw with the orc sieges.
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crash2455

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Re: Dwarf Fortress [DIG DEEPER 1.01 Release]
« Reply #111 on: June 21, 2009, 10:59:27 pm »

Man, that was insane.  I got up to 37 dwarves and then an orc siege destroyed everything (even after total militarization of the fortress).  Any reclaim efforts were pointless.  I was surprised by the game over message, though.  Did you change it to say "Your strength has been broken"?

« Last Edit: June 22, 2009, 01:19:54 am by crash2455 »
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Re: Dwarf Fortress [DIG DEEPER 1.01 Release]
« Reply #112 on: June 22, 2009, 06:46:56 am »

Two quick questions.

What is the temperature of magma in dorf fortress and is blackmetal magma-proof?
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The13thRonin

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Re: Dwarf Fortress [DIG DEEPER 1.01 Release]
« Reply #113 on: June 23, 2009, 03:23:55 am »

Two quick questions.

What is the temperature of magma in dorf fortress and is blackmetal magma-proof?

I don't know what the temperature of magma is but Blackmetal SHOULD be magma-proof. If it is not I will need to update it.
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abculatter_2

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Re: Dwarf Fortress [DIG DEEPER 1.01 Release]
« Reply #114 on: June 23, 2009, 03:27:11 am »

Two quick questions.

What is the temperature of magma in dorf fortress and is blackmetal magma-proof?

I don't know what the temperature of magma is but Blackmetal SHOULD be magma-proof. If it is not I will need to update it.

It is.

BTW, does anyone know if metal ores have similar heat-resistance as the metal they make?
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IndonesiaWarMinister

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Re: Dwarf Fortress [DIG DEEPER 1.01 Release]
« Reply #115 on: June 23, 2009, 04:09:48 am »

Two quick questions.

What is the temperature of magma in dorf fortress and is blackmetal magma-proof?

I don't know what the temperature of magma is but Blackmetal SHOULD be magma-proof. If it is not I will need to update it.

It is.

BTW, does anyone know if metal ores have similar heat-resistance as the metal they make?

They do.
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Haedrian

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Re: Dwarf Fortress [DIG DEEPER 1.01 Release]
« Reply #116 on: June 23, 2009, 04:59:32 am »

I haven't tried this mod yet (though I'm planning to soon) but I have a request for animals

Code: [Select]
CREATURE:LLAMA]
[NAME:llama:llamas:llama]
[TILE:'l'][COLOR:7:0:1]
[PETVALUE:200]
[PREFSTRING:long necks]
[LARGE_ROAMING]
[COMMON_DOMESTIC][PACK_ANIMAL]
[BENIGN][MEANDERER][PET]
[BODY:QUADRUPED:TAIL:2EYES:2EARS:NOSE:2LUNGS:HEART:GUTS:ORGANS:THROAT:NECK:SPINE:BRAIN:MOUTH]
[BODYGLOSS:HOOF][NATURAL]
[SIZE:7]
[ATTACK: MAIN: BYTYPE:STANCE:kick:kicks:1:2:BLUDGEON]
[CHILD:1][CHILDNAME:cria:crias]
[FAT:4]
[DIURNAL]
[STANDARD_FLESH]
[HOMEOTHERM:10068]
[LAYERING:150]
[TRADE_CAPACITY:2500]
[MUNDANE]
[MOUNTAIN]
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The13thRonin

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Re: Dwarf Fortress [DIG DEEPER 1.01 Release]
« Reply #117 on: June 25, 2009, 05:29:11 pm »

I haven't tried this mod yet (though I'm planning to soon) but I have a request for animals

Code: [Select]
CREATURE:LLAMA]
[NAME:llama:llamas:llama]
[TILE:'l'][COLOR:7:0:1]
[PETVALUE:200]
[PREFSTRING:long necks]
[LARGE_ROAMING]
[COMMON_DOMESTIC][PACK_ANIMAL]
[BENIGN][MEANDERER][PET]
[BODY:QUADRUPED:TAIL:2EYES:2EARS:NOSE:2LUNGS:HEART:GUTS:ORGANS:THROAT:NECK:SPINE:BRAIN:MOUTH]
[BODYGLOSS:HOOF][NATURAL]
[SIZE:7]
[ATTACK: MAIN: BYTYPE:STANCE:kick:kicks:1:2:BLUDGEON]
[CHILD:1][CHILDNAME:cria:crias]
[FAT:4]
[DIURNAL]
[STANDARD_FLESH]
[HOMEOTHERM:10068]
[LAYERING:150]
[TRADE_CAPACITY:2500]
[MUNDANE]
[MOUNTAIN]

I will put llamas in the new version. It's going along nicely... I want 300+ changes before I release it though... Including everything, even the trade fix.
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nahkh

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Re: Dwarf Fortress [DIG DEEPER 1.01 Release]
« Reply #118 on: June 29, 2009, 06:06:12 am »

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Re: Dwarf Fortress [DIG DEEPER 1.01 Release]
« Reply #119 on: July 04, 2009, 11:53:21 pm »

I figured out the bloodmetal thing. It was a mistake on my part.

I did, however, have a very sad experience happen on the mod. I finally had my first megabeast, only to be effortlessly slain by orcs before it could even move four tiles away from the edge of the map. I had really wanted to actually experience a megabeast, honestly. It did make me realize that the dragons are a bit underpowered, though. They don't have wings, and can't fly, nor do they stand much of a chance against any decently armed squad of dwarves, much less orcs.

I think Orcs should be toned down, or the Megabeasts built way up. After all, they're the rare, ultra powerful beasts that come siege forts all by their lonesome, right? Orcs are commonplace, and happen potentially every season.

Also, I've been replaying the scenario to see if it's possible to save the Dragon. I've noticed that, unless the Dragonfire doesn't cause burning, that the Orcs seem to be immune to burning. Neither they, nor their items (Which are steel in most cases. Wrestlers show up with nothing, however) catch fire. The latter usually understandable, however.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2009, 12:32:23 am by Jwguy »
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