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[SimRobert2001]

question: Did you do anything to the aggressiveness of hippos?

and i think that the orcs SHOULD be tamed, but only by about a quarter of their current strength.  Keep them stronger than goblins.  i just had 6 dwarves wiped out by a single orc, stopped only by a marksdwarf, who was only able to win BECAUSE he was mauling 6 dwarves.

[nahkh]

You're overreacting. I'm running a story fort where I kick back orcs in mêlée. The orcs seem to be what the goblins should've been. A trained army and a bit of tactics can beat them.

[Kruniac]

Note - This is just my opinion...


I love a godlike challenge. I am obsessed with the "Survival" aspect of DF. I don't wall myself up, I don't build excessive traps (Just enough to force attrition on the enemy so my soldiers can fight with more effectiveness), and I don't find losing to be anything other than carnage (Fun).

That having been said, the Orcs in this mod (and ESPECIALLY the original Orcs mod) are just retarded in design. There is absolutely no reason whatsoever for them to have the traits they do, other than to make them stupidly difficult.

I'm not talking about their sieging rates, or the NOPAIN. Even the NOFEAR is kind of neat.

....This is what I'm saying is absolutely retarded.

   [ATTACK:MAIN:BYTYPE:GRASP:punch:punches:1:6:BLUDGEON][ATTACKFLAG_WITH]


No one can justify that amount of damage from a punch. No one. They do NOT have fists that weigh 50 pounds. They do NOT have limbs that enable them to do the same amount of bludgeoning damage that a demon does with a bite. There is no reason whatsoever for the damage on their unarmed attacks to be 1:6 other than to make them "super".

Its pointless.

Even the 1:3 Gore damage on the bite is a little off, but I'll give them that. Maybe they have horrible fangs. Maybe they have powerful jaws. Maybe they are that savage. Seeing as how the bites will really only come into play if they have no arms, I don't really care.

No, its the    [ATTACK:MAIN:BYTYPE:GRASP:punch:punches:1:6:BLUDGEON][ATTACKFLAG_WITH]
that makes these Orcs not only absurd, but even a bit enraging. I've lost forts to GOBLIN ambushes before (Extreme wealth+Goblins=Massive Ambushes), so I really don't mind losing a fort to a horde of Orcs. I do, however, mind losing a fort to what amounts to a squad of megabeasts, which they aren't supposed to be.

All whining aside, I've changed my orcs to
[ATTACK:MAIN:BYTYPE:GRASP:punch:punches:1:2:BLUDGEON][ATTACKFLAG_WITH]

This makes them like any REASONABLE creature, and not an unbelievable twink race meant only to commit unrealistic carnage.

Also, TRAPAVOID? Since when? Are they psychic? No? Roguish? Sneaky? No? Sounds like an excuse to make them obscene yet again. Removed.

NOPAIN? Great. Berserker Orcs. That kicks ass.

NOFEAR? Awesome. Maybe they are devoted to their Gods, and do not fear death.

LOCKPICKER? There's that absurd notion that Orcs are sneaky or roguish in the least. They arent. Gone.

I would argue about an 850 RAW speed, but I won't. They are just faster than dwarves. Nothing wrong there.


I'm not bitching at the maker of this mod so much as this mod broke the camel's back in terms of what I can stand about the Orc mod. I had to vent. This mod rules in so many ways, I can't list them all. I'm especially looking forward to the new creatures (Vampires! OH GOD) as well as the new crops (Potato Vodka=Win). However, the Orcs were/are/will be totally uncalled for with that amount of damage (From a punch, no less) and need to be gimped.

Thanks for making this great mod.

[The13thRonin]

Just as a side note: The punch only comes into play with orc wrestlers or when they lose their weapons. I feel that it's realistic because DAMAGE is dependent on SIZE and orcs are much smaller than demons. Orcs do roughly 3x damage in close combat than humans and I think that that's the right balance. Many creatures have some form of 1:6 damage (including the lowly carp which is a fish  ). And as I am unable to change GRASPING attacks to my liking the orc 'punch' is meant to represent all close quarter attacks including: ripping at the throat, headbutting, stomping enemies while they're down. What it comes down to is orcs are STRONG and BRUTAL and when bloodthirsty and enraged in melee combat they're going to be a biach to take down.

The trapavoid assumes that they're so freaking tough and bloodthirsty that they pretty much can just smash through any cage/stonetrap/whatever in there way to get to their target (mainly this is to prevent player exploit such as hallways full of cage traps but if you can manage to control yourself then remove it and go nuts). Lockpicker is a workaround because I don't think it's very orcly for an orc siege to be stopped by a wooden door. However if I give them building destroy they will target buildings BEFORE engaging any dwarves in the area which I also think is very unorcly.

[nahkh]

In summary: Players exploit the fuck out of the game anyway, orcs needed more dakka for balance.
And having played against Ender goblins, these orcs are nothing.
No point in getting all butthurt about orcish behavior, if they bother you a moat stops em just fine. (unlike ender goblins, holy hell those guys)

[Kruniac]

The punch only comes into play with orc wrestlers...

That is half of the Orcs I encounter.

I feel that it's realistic because DAMAGE is dependent on SIZE and orcs are much smaller than demons.

Orcs are size 8. Titans are size 20 and do 1:2 bludgeon with a punch.

Many creatures have some form of 1:6 damage

...Not with a PUNCH. With a bite, claw, fire punch, sure. Not with a fist.

the orc 'punch' is meant to represent all close quarter attacks including: ripping at the throat, headbutting, stomping enemies while they're down. What it comes down to is orcs are STRONG and BRUTAL and when bloodthirsty and enraged in melee combat they're going to be a biach to take down.

Every race is assumed to perform those attacks in "wrestling". It represents savage beating, twisting, stomping, etc. There is no reason for orcs to do three times as much damage as a human being in a fist fight. You could just give them a claw attack instead, if you want horror.

The trapavoid assumes that they're so freaking tough and bloodthirsty that they pretty much can just smash through any cage/stonetrap/whatever in there way to get to their target

But that can't happen. Smashing through a cage? Sure. "Smashing" through boulders falling on you? That doesn't even make sense.

...I'll bet orcs will just "Smash" through 10 blades hissing at them from the nearby wall. Just smash through those 10 steel blades. Yep.

..No.

Lockpicker is a workaround because I don't think it's very orcly for an orc siege to be stopped by a wooden door. However if I give them building destroy they will target buildings BEFORE engaging any dwarves in the area which I also think is very unorcly.

You're right. Its best to give them LOCKPICKER instead of destroyer so that they don't zerg for the nearest building when they should be zerging at a dwarf. I take back what I said.

In summary: Players exploit the fuck out of the game anyway, orcs needed more dakka for balance.

Balance is the opposite of Dwarf Fortress.

No point in getting all butthurt about orcish behavior, if they bother you a moat stops em just fine.

It isn't "Orcish" to have 1:6 bludgeon damage on a fist. Its "stupid". I never mind getting slapped around by powerful creatures, so long as they are somewhat believable.

Like instead of saying "Oh god, Orcs! Those guys are going to fight to the death..." its more like "Oh god, Orcs! ...They punch as hard as most creatures bite.. wait..."

Yeah. Makes little sense. Like I said before, I just went off because this mod in particular is really awesome, and while orcs are great for it, THESE orcs ruin the "feel" of the mod with absurdly high unarmed damage.

I have potatoes, pigs, new metals, and basically a more "real" feel to DF. Since I changed my orcs, I have everything I need.

I went down to 3 population just now in my fortress, two of which bedridden. Thanks to a sheriff who beat people to death, and an Orc attack, we almost got wiped.

I zerged the invaders with 33 untrained wrestlers, eventually wiping them out at the cost of my population. If I would have kept the retarded orc RAW file, we would have died 12139832 times over, because those bastards punch as hard as most creatures bite.

So we have two situations here.

1 - Realistically swarming over larger creatures with superior numbers and more than a little booze for courage, eventually winning against said larger creatures despite them having armor and weapons (And a boatload of wrestlers).

2 - Keeping the original orcs, sending 40 dwarves against them, and watching your ENTIRE army get massacred because they can two shot you with a punch.

Which one is more "realistic", and fitting? Yeah.

Anyway, I wasn't bitching at THIS mod in particular, or even the original Orc mod, just bitching in general. Naturally, my install of DF is tweaked the way I want it, like everyone elses. My orcs have 1:2 punch damage, no TRAPAVOID (and I'll put LOCKPICKER back in, since it makes more sense). Your stock orcs are Shaolin monks who obviously don't get enough of a bonus for being two sizes larger than dwarves (damage bonus there), don't get enough of the "savage" and "brutal" feel out of having NOPAIN and NOFEAR, and generally are smaller megabeasts.

Whatever your play style is.

[SimRobert2001]

and lets not forget, the carp damaged is quite bugged. toady himself said that he made them too strong, and is going to tone them down in the future.

[Kruniac]

and lets not forget, the carp damaged is quite bugged. toady himself said that he made them too strong, and is going to tone them down in the future.

...I hate carp. XD

[nahkh]

Hmm, I still haven't seen the absurdly high damage that you claim. I kicked the butt of an orc siege (mostly wrestlers) with a largely untrained army, this being the spring of the second year. I lost one dwarf our of sixteen. One dwarf.
Here's video.
Maybe the difference is that I had the sense to give my dwarves weapons and shields?


Also, didn't The13thRonin just say that damage depends on size, not just the damage modifiers?
Ie. Demons with damage 1:6 do more damage than orcs with 1:6 because they are bigger. So titans with 1:2 and size 20 could do more actual damage than orcs even though orcs have bigger damage modifiers?

I zerged the invaders with 33 untrained wrestlers, eventually wiping them out at the cost of my population. If I would have kept the retarded orc RAW file, we would have died 12139832 times over, because those bastards punch as hard as most creatures bite.

... If you wonder why you get (and should get) massacred if you charge a siege of seasoned fighters with peasants then I have nothing to say. Trying to attack a superior force with untrained militia and then complaining that you got everyone killed? What gives?

But that can't happen. Smashing through a cage? Sure. "Smashing" through boulders falling on you? That doesn't even make sense.

...I'll bet orcs will just "Smash" through 10 blades hissing at them from the nearby wall. Just smash through those 10 steel blades. Yep.

..No.

I give you that. It doesn't make sense. But here's why I think it should stay on:
Currently the AI is really, really stupid. If there is a path, they will charge through it. No matter if noone has ever come back alive from that corridor, or if they just watched their mates get sliced to pieces by glass serrated disks. Giving orcs trapavoid forces players to rely on something other than the oh-so-exploitable trap corridors. Sure, you could play without relying on trap corridors. And sure, you can still make exploitable traps like water-filled corridors and the like. But part of the appeal of this mod is that it forces players to rethink DF strategy. If a corridor lined with traps no longer keeps you safe, and you no longer can swarm invaders with untrained wrestlers, the game gets a whole new kind of urgency. Now there is actually a reason to build intricate defenses.

[THREAD HIJACKED FOR FLAMEWAR PURPOSES]

[Blargityblarg]

Hang on. Do they preferentially destroy buildings if their BULDINGDESTROYER: argument is 1? I remember hearing that 1 makes them only agressive against buildings if they're the only things, or maybe that they can only destroy some buildings. I can't remember. I'll go check the wiki, see if it helps.

This might be a good alternative to [LOCKPICKER], is all.

[Meanmelter]

why are you all stunned on how tough orcs are,i can blow the shit out of em with basstila cannons or like 2 with 4 marksman

[Deon]

They do NOT have limbs that enable them to do the same amount of bludgeoning damage that a demon does with a bite.

This is TOTALLY wrong. Look again in the damage formula and show me where is it even close to the demon damage? I agree that orcs are tough but their damage is much smaller and is easily compensated by charge or berserk state of a dwarf according to a damage formula.

So titans with 1:2 and size 20 could do more actual damage than orcs even though orcs have bigger damage modifiers?

Sorry what? Orcs have SMALLER damage modifiers. It's basically 1d6 divided by some factors and clean 8 and 1d2 divided by some factors and clean 20. What's bigger, (8+d6) or (20+d2)? It's a very inaccurate and obstract counting, but it gives you the main picture.

I hate how people argue about things when they do not look in actual formulas .

P.S. Actually 1d6 makes their attack to depend on their skill more, which makes sense. If they had 1d2 or 1d3 they'd hit like horses/cows (which have too low damage IMO, horsekick should be deadly in most cases to an unarmored person).

[nahkh]

Deon: You completely misunderstood what I said.
I was making the same point you just made.
What I referred to as "damage modifiers" was the dice range (ie, the pair of numbers 1 and 6). Perhaps a bit of a misnomer but my meaning should've been clear from the context (not that that's an excuse for poor communication). And by actual damage I meant the result of the damage formula.
What you referred to as damage modifiers I would've called base damage, or maybe damage bonus.

tl;dr: You misunderstood me, we agree on the basic principles.

[Megaman]

I didn't have much problem with orcs, I just learned to arm my men with chainmail and swords(I lost all but 3 men on my first fortress do to having a mere 11 troops against 9 orcs). Anyway, if it's too hard for you mod the orcs and shut up.

[Meanmelter]

i agree,there not hard