Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[E. Albright]

Per subject. Should this be an activism option? A fundraising option? Both? Neither? Thoughts?

[E. Albright]

...and as we were, with our cluttering liberal-vs-leftist squabble in the 3.19 thread...

Because that would be the dogmatic effect.  The CCS couldn't attack the nuclear plant because that would be attacking conservative nuclear power.  The LCS couldn't attack PBS because that would be attacking public radio.  Likewise while the CCS might pull of the counterfeit scheme, the LCS shouldn't because that would be supporting the conservative agenda!  Attacks in these games are done against either the conservative or liberal establishment.

Fiat currency, the Federal Reserve, state managed money supply, these are all VERY liberal concepts.  Their absence would be arch conservative.  It doesn't matter what the hell your motive is, attacking these institutions is no less conservative then it would be liberal to slander religion.

Right, exactly! Likewise, as due process and rule of law are VERY liberal concepts, it doesn't matter what the hell your motive is, vigilantism is supporting the conservative agenda!

...right?

And printing fake money is done to attack the structural support for fiat currency.

...and here I thought you were saying it was to induce chaos.

No, you were saying that it was about inducing chaos.  I was saying something more important was at stake.

If you wish to accuse me of misguided Conservative thought, be my guest. But please be fair and accurate. I discussed using counterfeiting for the very pointed purpose of inducing inflation to reduce the value of debt and wealth held by corporations. You were the one who introduced such phrases as "creating economic anarchy" and "chaos inducing". I can't see how my "disrupt the corporatist system" turn-of-phrase can reasonably be taken to be synonymous with "induce chaos" without some fairly strong unstated assumptions.

Every argument you are given could equally be used to explain why the LCS would launch an attack on NPR.  Yes, NPR might be broadcasting news that isn't liberal.  Attacking NPR can create chaos that helps the liberal cause and might stick it to the man.  However NPR is a part of the liberal establishment.  Therefore attacking NPR would be an inherently conservative action.  This is why the LCS can no more attack NPR then the CCS can attack conservative media.

And every argument you've given against counterfeiting as a form of Liberal Activism could be used equally to explain why the LCS can't own guns or engage in political violence. Private gun ownership is fundamentally conservative; therefore, the LCS cannot do it regardless of their motives, because the means to whatever Liberal end they're pursuing would then be fundamentally Conservative... right? Suppressing free speech is fundamentally Conservative; therefore, the LCS cannot attack Conservative media outlets regardless of their motives? I'm sorry, I can't possibly see an argument that LCS means to Liberal ends must be ideologically pure could possibly hope to be taken seriously.

Finally, I'd point out that I'm not sure I'd be willing to credit rejection of fiat currency as being arch-conservative. I really don't think it is, according to the definition of arch-conservative presented by LCS. Clamoring for a return to commodity currency is something most often heard on the right coming from fringe far-right libertarians and PMD fundamentalists. Fiat currency is a well-established tradition in American capitalism. Corporations don't want to see it gone. Movement conservatives looking for a strong, right-wing US government don't want to see it gone. The ones who want to see it gone don't want to see it gone because they're devoted to movement conservatism, they want to see it gone because of the doctrines of their particular brand of libertarianism or Christianity. They want to see it gone in spite of their Conservative leanings, not because of them. Remember, right-wing is no more equivalent to Conservative than left-wing is to Liberal, even in the over-the-top caricatures presented by LCS. Heedless conflation leads to needless confusion.

[E. Albright]

My own thoughts on the matter is that counterfeiting could be available as a fund-raising method, but not as a form of activism. Let the LCS dilute its cash with funny money if it wants, but only model the effect this would have on them rather than attempting to work out an economic model to account for large-scale efforts to inject homemade currency into the existing economy.

[mainiac]

1) the game would be substantially less cool if the LCS were pussies who didn't use guns.
2) dogmatic adherence to the liberal agenda: terrorists using guns strengthens gun control, whereas terrorists printing money weakens fiat currency

[Guy Montag]

I like kinda this idea.

Just a thought, IRL the Secret Service is in charge of investigating counterfeiting, so if you spend too much counterfeit money, you get seiged by Agents. Then again, it might be a pain to program or keep track of multiple types (and qualities) of money. It'd also open up the possiblity to launder the counterfeits for real money, which might be a little outside of the scope of the game.

Another thought, a good quality counterfeit would need something like the printing plates they use to make real money. Maybe have a site action object you can steal or somehow fabricate the printing plates for use with the printing presses to make high-quality bills that would effect the chance of getting caught/ seiged by the Secret Service. Maybe have Agent sleepers that could have a chance to procure one if he has the "steal equipment" duty? Have paper rolls be a steal-able object in site actions like cloth currently is?

Might be a better alternative then having a liberal make photocopied counterfeits.

Also, I don't really see how counterfeiting would be against the LCS's ideals or whatever. It seems like a perfect way to get money without serving any capitalist agenda besides your own (justified) uses. Also, not sure you could counterfeit enough money to create significant inflation without getting caught. You would have to be printing out massive volumes and putting them into circulation to make even a minor effect, I think.

[mainiac]

Also, I don't really see how counterfeiting would be against the LCS's ideals or whatever.

It undermines economy regulation and promotes the (arch-arch-arch) conservative agenda of a gold standard.

[E. Albright]

2) dogmatic adherence to the liberal agenda: terrorists using guns strengthens gun control, whereas terrorists printing money weakens fiat currency

Whereas terrorists carrying out summary executions and more general vigilantism undermines due process and rule of law, and terrorists blowing up media outlets that are ideologically impure undermines freedom of the press. This argument doesn't hold water; it's still a matter of Illiberal means serving Liberal ends.

Also, I don't really see how counterfeiting would be against the LCS's ideals or whatever.

It undermines economy regulation and promotes the (arch-arch-arch) conservative agenda of a gold standard.

False dichotomy. Liberals being for fiat currency doesn't automatically mean Conservatives are against it. You can find opposition to it on the left as well (e.g. anarcho-primitivists). It's not a tenet of American Conservatism; American Conservatism is strongly wed to classical market liberalism, and sees nothing wrong with fiat currency. Indeed, from a corporatist point of view, fiat currency is desirable. More generally, one need get to fringe movements with Libertarian or PMD tendencies to see this cropping up as a major concern on the right. By and large, Conservatism is wholly accepting of fiat currency. There are right-wing movements that reject it, but there are also left-wing movements doing likewise. This isn't really a Liberal-Conservative disagreement in the US, or even an Elite Liberal-Arch Conservative one.

[E. Albright]

Another thought, a good quality counterfeit would need something like the printing plates they use to make real money. Maybe have a site action object you can steal or somehow fabricate the printing plates for use with the printing presses to make high-quality bills that would effect the chance of getting caught/ seiged by the Secret Service. Maybe have Agent sleepers that could have a chance to procure one if he has the "steal equipment" duty? Have paper rolls be a steal-able object in site actions like cloth currently is?

Might be a better alternative then having a liberal make photocopied counterfeits.

You do make a number of fair points regarding how much trouble it could be to implement this in a non-naive manner. It somewhat points to a need for some skill representing technical expertise, and that might well make this more trouble than it's worth to imlement in a balanced manner. Still, I think it'd be worth considering...

[mainiac]

This argument doesn't hold water; it's still a matter of Illiberal means serving Liberal ends.

The ends of the Liberal crime squad is the Liberal Agenda.  Fiat currency is part of the liberal agenda...

False dichotomy. Liberals being for fiat currency doesn't automatically mean Conservatives are against it.

However the fact that a substantial conservative movement exists supporting the gold standard does.  Ron Paulites were salivating over the gold standard.  Alan Greenspan advocated it for years.  Jack Kemp, the patron politician of supply side economics advocated a return to the gold standard.  The gold standard is the cornerstone of the conservative goal of deregulating the economy.  The fundamental philosophical notion of the gold standard is that government can not be trusted.  The gold standard completely and utterly fits into the philosophy that government is not the answer.  The gold standard has no role in the liberal philosophy of putting (economic) power into the hands of the government.

But forget the gold standard for a moment.  Just consider what the mass inflation scheme would be doing.  It would be undermining the liberal notion of market regulation.  It doesn't matter if the political consequences are hitting a liberal president or a conservative one.  Either way it is liberal principles that are being undermined, the public doesn't trust the government because of the government's liberal policies.  And the LCS sees undermining liberal policies and liberal government philosophy as conservative thought.

[E. Albright]

But forget the gold standard for a moment.

Let's.

Just consider what blowing up conservative media outlets would be doing.  It would be undermining the liberal notion of a free press.  It doesn't matter if the political consequences are hitting a liberal president or a conservative one.  Either way it is liberal principles that are being undermined, the public is being denied uncensored news because of the LCS's  illiberal policies.  And the LCS sees undermining liberal policies and liberal government philosophy as conservative thought.

Or consider what rampaging through police stations with assault rifles would be doing. It would be undermining the liberal notion of private gun control and a government monopoly on violence. It doesn't matter if the political consequences are hitting a liberal president or a conservative one. Either way it is liberal principles that are being undermined, the public doesn't trust the government to keep them safe because of the government's liberal policies. And the LCS sees undermining liberal policies and liberal government philosophy as conservative thought.

Which is to say, even if we accept rejection of fiat currency as a necessary implicit goal (rather than unintended consequence) of mass counterfeiting, even if we were to accept the (rather dubious) notion that the gold standard is somehow the cornerstone of conservative deregulatory scheming... it does not change the fact that the LCS is already performing activism which directly undermines both the Liberal agenda and the public's faith in Liberal governance. Demonstrating that the police are incapable of protecting citizens (or even themselves) from harm does far more damage to the liberal agenda than calling fiat currency into question. That certain means undermines public faith in their end has already been rejected as cause for avoiding certain forms of activism. That horse is out of the barn.

[mainiac]

Can we just agree to disagree and let a dead horse lie?

[E. Albright]

Sure.

[E. Albright]

So, moving back to the subject: does counterfeiting seem like a worthwhile addition (moreso as an illegal fundraising methodology than an attempt at economic manipulation), or does it seem like introducing it would be more hassle than it's worth?

[Nemo2342]

Shouldn't liberals be trying to set up alternative currencies as a form of activism, instead of counterfeiting? Mind you, the man would still come after them for counterfeiting if they were too successful, but it wouldn't increase their actual cash reserves unless it somehow became legal tender.

[Servant Corps]

Well, the Assocation of Liberal Crime Squads, led by E. Albright had the bonds system, in which the LCS sells bonds to raise money for other LCSes. I could see those bonds being transferable and act as an alternative currency. Plus, they would count as 'securities', meaing they are under the rules of the SEC, meaning the LCS can be arrested for selling securities.

But, to put in bonds require a new interface to allow for the LCS to borrow money. And...erm, it could lead to problems. The LCS could decide to borrow millions, MILLIONS, and then accidently blow themselves up, defaulting on the bonds.