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[Idiom]

I might have suggested this before when I started playing XCOM again awhile ago. I started tying to beat it on the 4th difficulty again (barely gaining ground). The thing is, I've been thinking XCOM lately. Then I was playing DF for a break and I started thinking.

Is this list of things from XCOM?
-Tile based
-Command of squads
-Troops with RPGish stats which improve
-Deformable Terrain
-Bases that can be invaded and defended
-Resource management

Actually, that's all in DF. And then some.

 Add:
-Complex damage and health systems
-The raising of all equipment from the very ground
-Worldwide Economy
-Multiple Civilizations to war against
-Politics
-Targeting of specific parts
-Destructible buildings and constructions
-Explosions
-Magic
-Fire and lighting system
-Etc

All those are already in DF or in the works. If DF simply had a squad command mode where you controlled each dwarf a-la adventure mode with so many time units per turn-per-guy, it could be even bigger than XCOM.

I would die from a lack of sleep.

[Drake1500]

If DF simply had a squad command mode where you controlled each dwarf a-la adventure mode with so many time units per turn-per-guy, it could be even bigger than XCOM.

I would die from a lack of sleep.

"Simply"? No, definitely NOT "simply". DF is NOT about controlling your little guys ala FPS mode. Please, we do not need to add this to Toady's plate. There are plenty of TBS (Turn-Based Strategy) games out there. I think telling Toady to turn DF into something I do not see it going to is like telling him to make a RTS (Real-Time Simulation) into a TBFPS (Turn-Based First-Person Shooter). Actually, that IS what you're telling him to do. Please, DON'T DO IT! XCOM is there for you. DF is there for me. Let's just go on our respective ways, and play our respective games. When you want DF, it'll be there. When you want something else, play something else.

In conclusion, I am against this suggestion. Whole-heartedly. For all the reasons stated above.

[irmo]

XCOM wasn't a first-person shooter.

[Dakk]

Both post make valid statements, but i gotta agree with drake here. Your idea is pretty valid, Idiom, but this is just like those many others. Its one of those ideas thar sugest changing the current course of ideas to something else already done in another game.
While XCOM is fun on its own right, DF follows a completely different course, trying to adapt it to a XCOM-esque system, even if just combat wise, would force Toady to scrap his own designs for DF to use ideas that already exist in other game. Its like changing your style just because the other style looks cool.

99,9% of the DF community apreciates Toady's plans and ideas for DF, and want things to stay that way. When we make sugestions, we use our inspirations and original ideas and adapt them to the way DF is being developed, as something that can be added into the game, not changing the whole thing. I see your idea was inspired by XCOM, but using it would be killing DF's own development and starting it all over, which would cause massive ammounts of RAGE and free the dogs of BAWWWWW.

Plus it'd be totally un-dwarfy. And anyways, 90% of everything you said is in the dev list anyway, i just wanted to say i'd like to see DF done, not a XCOM clone.

[Aquillion]

If DF simply had a squad command mode where you controlled each dwarf a-la adventure mode with so many time units per turn-per-guy, it could be even bigger than XCOM.

I would die from a lack of sleep.

"Simply"? No, definitely NOT "simply". DF is NOT about controlling your little guys ala FPS mode. Please, we do not need to add this to Toady's plate. There are plenty of TBS (Turn-Based Strategy) games out there. I think telling Toady to turn DF into something I do not see it going to is like telling him to make a RTS (Real-Time Simulation) into a TBFPS (Turn-Based First-Person Shooter). Actually, that IS what you're telling him to do. Please, DON'T DO IT! XCOM is there for you. DF is there for me. Let's just go on our respective ways, and play our respective games. When you want DF, it'll be there. When you want something else, play something else.

In conclusion, I am against this suggestion. Whole-heartedly. For all the reasons stated above.

Actually, as I recall, controlling your dwarves directly is one option that Toady's considered for when you're leading military attacks against external sites.  I'm not sure if he's still considering it, though.

[Idiom]

FPS
RTS
TBFPS
changing the whole thing
XCOM clone

I can see none of you have even played XCOM.

Did I say "Make DF into XCOM"?

I am suggesting a modified adventure mode. That's what it would be. Adventure mode controlling more than one guy at a time possibly mixed in with fort mode. That's like XCOM. Not is. Far from is, and would be way beyond XCOM.

90% of everything you said is in the dev list anyway

That's what I already said ("All those are already in DF or in the works."). All I'm saying is you add one extra mode that's a simple tweak of an existing mode as most everything is already in place. Then, Blammo! Instant tried and true game type on an engine that is already ready for it and will be even more so later.

I'm not sure if he's still considering it, though.

I could have sworn I read a long time ago he'd consider something like this.

[Capntastic]

In adventure mode you'll surely have some manner of suggesting to your followers what to do.   I don't think full control will or should happen, though.

[sweitx]

I believe something similar maybe in the work for the army arc.  Namely you can play the fortress as if it's primarily a military base, where you send your dwarf to other land to conquer/destroy stuffs.  As for how much control you'll have, it will be up to Toady.

[Toady One]

There was an idea to let you control a party you create, though not to recruit people and then get to mind control them so much.  This suggestion is sort of like an RPG party?  That and accompanying control mechanics are Core24.  Adventure mode is mainly going to be organized around single character, but I don't have a problem with a group type thing, and this was also going to be the idea for small dwarf raids.  That's Core something else.  35.

[Drake1500]

I can see none of you have even played XCOM.

You are correct. I have never played it, nor do I think I've ever watched anyone play it. So, everything I said was based off of what I saw in your suggestion.

All I'm saying is you add one extra mode that's a simple tweak of an existing mode as most everything is already in place. Then, Blammo! Instant tried and true game type on an engine that is already ready for it and will be even more so later.

No, not instant. I'm fairly certain simple copy-paste doesn't work that way in this sort of programming. Adventure mode and Fortress mode are two completely seperate modes; the only thing the same about them, programming-wise, is that they draw from the same data when building the world that you play in. Many mechanics would have to be created in order for your idea to work in fortress mode.

In adventure mode you'll surely have some manner of suggesting to your followers what to do.   I don't think full control will or should happen, though.

I completely agree.The only time you should have full control over any dwarf is in adventure mode, and even in AM, you should only have full control over your own character. Anything more, and I would not enjoy playing DF as much as I do, because the entire feel of the game would change. I'm all for macromanagement in a game this big, and micromanagement only up to a certain point. Telling each dwarf specifically what to do is way too much micromanagement, even if it's only an option.

Maybe we could have the option of seeing through their eyes, ala FP-mode, but not actually controlling what they do.

[chucks]

Man, X-COM!  Those were the days!  Martians or undersea alien nasties left from the prehistoric period?

X-Com is an interesting take on the concept of the party system.  With DF, you don't get that same level of control with your squads, but it is a pretty interesting filter to look at squads in DF with.

Unfortunately, I believe that exposing that much detail of DF combat in a turn based squad combat would just be entirely too much detail.  It would also expose way too many low-level technical style HFS details of the core DF engine dynamics.

[Aquillion]

I think it could be sort of fun for deploying dwarves on an away mission, though.  The 'current' system we have for melee attacks would, I think, usually be pretty unsatisfying for raids -- it's basically "fling your dwarves at the enemy and watch."  Which is fun in a mode where the battleground and so on is also built by you, and where you probably have other things to worry about as well...  but when you're attacking an enemy fortress it seems like a bit of a waste.  I'd like to be able to have my dwarves grab some specific thing that I need and run with it, say, or assassinate one particular person and then try to escape.

Still, there's lots of ways it could be done.

[Sowelu]

The time units thing sounds like the broken part to me.  I don't see how DF could convert to a "he takes 10 turns, then she takes 10 turns, then that guy takes 10 turns" thing.  Dwarven combat would be obscenely brutal if you did that; you'd run up to a guy, grab the right arm and break it, grab the left arm and break it, then run away all in one turn.

And controlling a squad one move at a time is no fun at all.

[Sunken]

Probably something a bit more modern, like X-COM: Afterlight, would do better: you give orders to each squad member, then unpause and watch the action unfold in real-time (or slow-motion), in other words fortress-mode-time, until such time as you want to change some order or an order is completed or invalidated (or some other interrupt occurs, such as a new baddie spotted).

Would require a bit of interface changes, but very little under the hood and nothing in terms of presentation AFAICS

[Drake1500]

Probably something a bit more modern, like X-COM: Afterlight, would do better: you give orders to each squad member, then unpause and watch the action unfold in real-time (or slow-motion), in other words fortress-mode-time, until such time as you want to change some order or an order is completed or invalidated (or some other interrupt occurs, such as a new baddie spotted).

Would require a bit of interface changes, but very little under the hood and nothing in terms of presentation AFAICS

I still think that this entire idea is not fun at all. As I said before, this is very micromanagement, when what we need is macromanagement.

I think it could be sort of fun for deploying dwarves on an away mission, though.  The 'current' system we have for melee attacks would, I think, usually be pretty unsatisfying for raids -- it's basically "fling your dwarves at the enemy and watch."  Which is fun in a mode where the battleground and so on is also built by you, and where you probably have other things to worry about as well...  but when you're attacking an enemy fortress it seems like a bit of a waste.  I'd like to be able to have my dwarves grab some specific thing that I need and run with it, say, or assassinate one particular person and then try to escape.

Still, there's lots of ways it could be done.

For raids, you could still control the individual squads the same way you do at home; position them and such. I see no problem with the current system for raids.