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[Deto]

A geologist, something we dwarves miss currently. Experts in stone and all that jazz, but when we strike the mountain, we have no idea at all what to find and what possibly to have there. Its not that important in this version, but probably would be in the new release.

Geologists job would be to determine, explore and figure out what kind of rock there is ahead and what kind of mountain features. Its a long job but reaps its rewards as it saves time, planning and frustration from miners.

What he really does game vise?

1. MOUNTAIN SIDE
Geologist has couple of things he does. He can explore and study the outer mountain (the first layer, outside wall) to figure out basic features the mountain has, be it river, magma, chasms, pits, what not. And he can also figure out what kind of materials you can expect to find there. Mostly a guess, not perfect, but pretty good guess anyhow. Gives you overral view of the mountain site, if its worth really digging in or not.

2. INNER MOUNTAIN
Geologists uses don't just quit after you strike the mountain side, instead inside he can 'sonar the rock' to give you several rock deep view of the coming rocks (sort of map reveal), again, an estimate, not exact view. He can about identify near by (well, actually pretty far) large features, like the possible underground river location, magma, or similiar.

3. DEEPER MOUNTAIN
Geologist can also study the ground below, to figure out what is below them, in case of planning to tunnel downstairs. One wouldn't wish to hit the magma river while digging in, would they?  

XXXXXX

Actually the geologist would probably have to be a noble, else you could just throw every seven dwarves to do geology on the area and have everything ready in a bit.. Maybe he should even be some sort of 'mining reward' noble. Ie heavy mining and mine stuff trading (ore trade) would bring you one or something similiar. It would require you to be able to pack stuff up and move to different spot to actually start the fortress though... Else he would be useless. And if you started with him, it would be too good. But, I was thinking it would be pretty nice feature anyhow  

I'm thinking of him as one ONLY limit, its sort of the 'thinking' version of the first miner to hit water and drown  

Any thoughts on how it would be more balanced or more fun?

[ September 12, 2007: Message edited by: Deto ]

[mickel]

The geologist was one of the suggestions that came up in the thread about scanning the mountain (Scan the Mountain) and I quite like it.

To summarise, before the thread went completely off track, suggestions were made for:

• Professional (nobler or otherwise) which sounds designated areas
  
• A passive skill in miners that lets them "see" further into the mountain
  
• Sonar
  
• Dwarves carrying Rock-o-Scopes bought from the elves
  
• Divination magic
  
• Blind miners riding whales in salt-water filled caverns
  

Personally I like the first two items best.

[Grek]

I'd rather this be an apointable position with a new skill just like the rest of the new nobles.

[irmo]

quote:Originally posted by Grek:
<STRONG>I'd rather this be an apointable position with a new skill just like the rest of the new nobles.</STRONG>

I question the wisdom of making it a skill.  What would the progression look like?  When you get to Legendary, you get to see the entire mountain?

[Felix the Cat]

I think it makes sense for this to be a noble position. It was pointed out that surveying is dirty work, and thus surveying wouldn't be a good job for a noble. However, I don't think that statement would be accurate for dwarves - surely a surveyor would be a position of great honor and prestige in dwarven society, and surely dwarves love to work with rock, whatever their social position.

[Capntastic]

I'd rather there be a seasonal report about what your miners think is ahead, rather than a Geologist Noble or something else that's a unitasker.   Likewise, seasonal reports in general, depending on guilds, would be awesome.

[Tamren]

A geologist would be handy to have around. But knowing that is THERE is not enough, you need to know how to deal with it.

To ago along with the geologist you would have to add some sort of engineer. Or perhaps combine the two.

[mickel]

It's been stated in another thread that "nobles" are not just nobles anymore, they're nobles and appointees. After all, the sheriff is a "noble" and he's out there handling drunk and disorderly dwarves like any policeman on the beat. Not very nobleman-like, is he?

As for legendary surveying skill, I think it's more realistic that they be able to "see" up to three squares in, with a staggering 75% accuracy, and at half the time compared to a beginner.

[Thallone]

I like the idea of a geologist skill, but I think it would be something that Miners would be naturally attuned to as well, perhaps they would gain skill at a lower rate than the designated geologist, say 1/4 as fast xp gain as they tunnel along and see what leads to what as a passive skill.

The real question is, would you have to designate an area to sound out and how long would it take compared to exploring with a pick? On the same front, What about designating which miners can mine for what, so that your novice miners aren't hacking into precious iron and coal. Let them do the rockwork and channels and such, let the legendaries mine the good stuff.

Another thing comes to mind. Automining Mineral veins. This would work like Hunting, but you could select to automine All, only by mineral (set types like a stockpile order), by miner, and the important one, Never in defined rooms. Then, if you have a mineral vien, you can follow it with less intervention. when too much is mined, turn off autominig. Default should be off. The end of the mineral vein would have to be exposed, not merely delved, to automine, so you can't dig through stone to get to ore with automine without designating dig.

Edit: apparently this is already covered in a bloat. nevermind.

[ September 14, 2007: Message edited by: Thallone ]

[mickel]

Setting which miners mine what is a superb idea. I like it.

[Krash]

I'm not sure why we really need a geologist skill at all.  

Why not just leave it to the miners, and use the mining skill instead?  Less hassle and less unnecessary complexity.  (Complexity can be fun, but not if the annoyance by far outweighs any entertainment.)  

Toady has already hinted of warning messages  in the next version when a dwarf digs too close to water/magma/whatever, and that's fine in my opinion.

[mickel]

Yea, I figure miners should definitely have a passive skill that lets them know when they're close to lava, etc. The warning messages work fine for that.

A geologist would be more for giving general impressions of the mountain.

[Toady One]

There's most likely going to be something like this.  While discovery inside features is important for getting a solid water supply up in many locations, it seems like a basically semi-magical ability to know vaguely where the river is is unavoidable.  It would also have to let you know if you've got a cave river when you are placing your site.  The cave river is easy to hit in 2D, because it's a 1D object and it partitions the space (even without a left/right orientation as in the current version), but finding an essentially 1D object in a 3D space is very unlikely in the volume we're working with.  You'd be very like to cross over or under it if you cross it at all.  Right now I'm leaning toward an appointee that gives you skill-based guesses as to where things in the mountain are, whether those are features or mineral types and so on, and you'd also be able to see what you've discovered and where.  So as you build up this appointee you'd eventually figure these things out.  For important features like the cave river, you'd need fairly good info quickly, so I suppose I'll just have to make that easy.  If water availability doesn't turn out to be such a problem, this can be scaled back.  As the game currently stands, many forts would be doomed to die of thirst.  I'm going to stick some booze in the starting supplies so new people can live for a while without having to worry about it, but it's still one of the main problems with the new version.  I'm also thinking of making some streams come up for several squares away from the main rivers.

[axus]

How often would the cave river come out of the mountain?  Couldn't you just look around to find where the water exits?   It's only 1 z-tile deep?

[Toady One]

It doesn't right now, but even then you might not get your placement 10x10 correct in the 16x16, depending on how much it shows you during placement, and I can't have all the cave rivers leaving the mountain or you'd have a river entering the world map on every tile, which would just be too rivery.  Yeah, all 1 z right now.  I haven't gotten a chance to make the inside (or outside) rivers all that interesting, with lakes and deep spots.  It's just another item languishing on to-do that I probably won't get to this time around.