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[zchris13]

I just graph papered the 45 degree boat, and it has some potential.  It needs work, but I'll continue looking at it.  Counting the tiles.

It is really awkward.  Super awkward.  Boats will need to be a very specific shape do go on the diagonal.

[Toady One]

Ah, I've never seen 'n' for pi before.  In any case 45 degrees is kind of hard, because if you want a 1-to-1 correspondence between the tiles, it's hard to see what a simple 3x3 rectangle facing north would be if you turned it northwest.

That's the nice thing about four directions.  When you rotate, everything on the ship can be moved to a new, clear location and all of the tiles can maintain their old type (respecting rotation) and so on.  They can still move in as many directions as you like.  The fast 4-dir turning is only a problem when you consider the outside squares, which I talked about a bit in my last large post in this thread.  The eventually idea is that it would be cool if you could be involved with steering these around in adv mode at so on, and fight other ships and sea monsters and coastal fortifications and all of whatever.

I don't understand about predefining the ship in other compass directions beside the main four, as the 1-1 correspondence between tiles would be lost, but yeah, the diagram shown in the previous post is the idea for 4 directional shifts.

[zchris13]

It's not an n. It looks like an n, but it's not. It's the chair from the game, I think it's that tile.  Grabbed it from wikipedia.
But, yeah. I see exactly what you mean. I am satisfied.  Thank you toady! Getting out of the way now.

[Toady One]

Ah, pi generally looks quite different as the top edges usually stick out.  Font thing I guess.  π.  Yeah, this font sucks.  It just looks like a little upside down square U to me.  Even the capital Pi usually has the little serify things on top, even if wikipedia shows it as the upside down square U, and the mathematical degree one is the lower case pi in any case, which should have pronounced sticker outers.

[LegoLord]

I would just like to bring back up the possibility that, even if dwarves and elves aren't appropriate for boats, there are still humans.  Besides, just because dwarves live in mountains doesn't mean there isn't anything a boat might be a useful tool for crossing withing their immediate area.

[Urist McDetective]

I don't understand about predefining the ship in other compass directions beside the main four, as the 1-1 correspondence between tiles would be lost,

True, you do lose the precise shape on anything but the 4 main compass points.
If the ship is drawn facing 8, 16 (however many) directions; each direction should have the same number of tiles with unique identifiers. (even if the actual number of tiles change)
The ship would place each object in a tile with the same ID as you change directions.
In concept, it sounded good to me - even if a large ship can't stay the same shape when it changes direction slightly, it's still possible to hold everything in the same relative position.

[Impaler[WrG]]

It is really awkward.  Super awkward.  Boats will need to be a very specific shape do go on the diagonal.

I think you have hit on the inescapable trade off that diagonally orienting ANYTHING in the game brings.  And I would rather see mobile vehicles (Siege engines, Ships, giant robots etc etc) be created with a free-form system that gives the player complete control over the size, shape and material of the object rather then a system of predefined objects.

[Toady One]

Urist McDetective,

I think the issue there is that it's not possible to maintain relative positions with any sort of precision even if they kind of match up.  I'm not even sure it's possible to maintain adjacency, which would be pretty crucial, and changing three tiles in a row to three tiles that are no longer in a row would also be messy for some constructions.  I think the number of tiles would also probably need to be maintained unless we have a way to handle creatures suddenly being contracted on to the same square.

It's going to be open for discussion until we actually arrive there a long time from now, so if there is some kind of thing that works out to expand the number of directions while not adding a problem larger than the massive displacements that come with 4 directions then I'm all for it.

[kalida99]

you could take the easy/un-realistic way out and just make the boats square

[Footkerchief]

you could take the easy/un-realistic way out and just make the boats square

Or the easy realistic way and make them circular, like coracles.  They aren't really of swashbuckling proportions, but they would at least address some of the basic motivations for boats.  A 3x3 coracle isn't that much of a stretch, and since they don't generally seem to have rudders, the concerns of rotation can probably be ignored.

e: although I guess 3x3 is pretty much a square.  Well, maybe it could at least use rounded-looking tiles for the corners or something.

[Craftling]

Dwarves would probably have boats to show they can. I think that the docks would be like this:
Same as the Trade Depot except has to have 3 tiles on the water and can have boats built in them.
Would Boatbuilding come under carpentry or a new category(boatbuilding)?

[Silverionmox]

Dwarves would probably have boats to show they can. I think that the docks would be like this:
Same as the Trade Depot except has to have 3 tiles on the water and can have boats built in them.
Would Boatbuilding come under carpentry or a new category(boatbuilding)?

Shipwrights are highly specialized craftsmen. Of course they'll need their own skill. Dwarves would certainly excel at shipbuilding, but I doubt they would be willing to use them.. Going months without a solid rock in sight, caught between the menacing blue sky and the waiting water would spell certain doom for our tantrum-prone dwarves. Let the humans do it.

I'd rather favour a ship to be built like a building, and become floating if it is finished and the area is flooded.

[Fieari]

The biggest problem with diagonals in DF is that DF treats all 8 closest tiles as adjecent.  For example

Code: [Select]

.X.
.X.
.X.
where X is a wall, is inpassable.

Code: [Select]

X..
.X.
..X
Is passable.  I order to translate the first wall to a 45 degree situation, you'd have to do something like:

Code: [Select]

.XX
..X
...
Which is hardly ideal.  It looks weird, even if it is topologically equivelent given the constraints.  The trick is that where in figure 1, above, you can go in one direction and remain adjacent to the wall, and in Figure 2 you can do the same (but the wall suddenly is full of holes), in figure three you need to change direction in order to move along the wall in an equivelent fashion.

(from the left side of the wall, move diagonally up, and you maintain adjacency in a different rotation each time.  From the right, you must go up, then left, AND the adjacency is rotated.  it's weird... but again, topographically equivelent regardless, I'm pretty sure)

Maintaining both consistent direction of movement and solidity is basically impossible in this topographic layout.  Diagonals would have to be removed as a possible direction of movement in order to make it work.

(edit: fine, have some code tags)

[Footkerchief]

Not to nitpick, but code tags would make the diagrams a lot more legible.

Why do you have to change directions in figure 3?  You can just use the numpad diagonals to hug the wall.  And what's the relevance to the diagonal rotation of boats?

[Solifuge]

Thoughts on Boats/Vehicles and 4 vs 8 Directions:

When you want to rotate a figure that exists on a fixed grid, 90° rotations cause no problems. However, rotating such an object by 45° always results in some degree of distortion. This is evident in Pixel Art.


(Successive 45° Rotations and their distortive effect)


This same principle applies to rotating the grid on which Dwarf Fortress maps exist. Rotating a Vehicle like a Boat 45° will cause tile distortions, where objects that are next to each other when facing Vertically or Horizontally will no longer be adjacent when facing Diagonally.

Code: (Sample Boat) [Select]

   ////
  ▓▓▓▓▓
 ▓▓++☺▓▓
  ▓▓▓▓▓
   \\\\

Code: (Diagonal Distortion) [Select]

▓ ▓
 ▓ ▓─
▓ + ▓─
 ▓ + ▓─
 │▓ ☺ ▓─
  │▓ ▓
   │▓ ▓       "True" 45° Rotation, illustrating adjacent Tiles
    │
▓▓─
▓+▓─
│▓+▓─
 │▓☺▓─
  │▓▓         Adjusted 45° Rotation, preserving walkable tile positions, but resulting in distortion of ship size/shape.
   │
On a less studious note, I'm seriously excited to see Vehicles in Dwarf Fortress. Whether it's just Oxen pulling a wagon to help Dwarves haul goods around their Fortress, a Ballista-armed Galleon firing on a coastal settlement, or a Siege Tower rolling in to breach the fortress walls, I really want to see this happen.

Anyway, because I'm excited by the idea, I made a mockup of a Dwarven Longship, carrying its crew across the ocean: