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[Aquillion]

I recall seeing something in the Mod forum where someone created a "Slag" reaction at smelter, where smelting slag has a percentage chance to create totally random metals; common/cheap metals like copper are most likely, and there's a teeeeny chance of smelting slag and getting something really nice, like platinum...  my ideal concept of a metal-reclaim reaction would produce the item's metal based on skill, and a percentage of a bar of slag.  So, if a dabbler melts an iron breast plate, he gets roughly a 10% return of the iron, and the other 90% becomes a 9/10 of a bar of slag -- a Legend would get 90% of the iron back, and 1/10th of a bar of slag.  I imagine it would be pretty horrible to code, though.

That seems like a bad idea.  Under your system, I could, in theory, have a novice melt down some copper swords to get some slag bars, then smelt the slag bars and end up with a bar of platinum.  Worse, I'm better off having a novice melt my copper items, because then I get more slag -- and under your system, slag is far more valuable than copper (since it has the potential to sometimes smelt into a more valuable metal.)

[sweitx]

I recall seeing something in the Mod forum where someone created a "Slag" reaction at smelter, where smelting slag has a percentage chance to create totally random metals; common/cheap metals like copper are most likely, and there's a teeeeny chance of smelting slag and getting something really nice, like platinum...  my ideal concept of a metal-reclaim reaction would produce the item's metal based on skill, and a percentage of a bar of slag.  So, if a dabbler melts an iron breast plate, he gets roughly a 10% return of the iron, and the other 90% becomes a 9/10 of a bar of slag -- a Legend would get 90% of the iron back, and 1/10th of a bar of slag.  I imagine it would be pretty horrible to code, though.

That seems like a bad idea.  Under your system, I could, in theory, have a novice melt down some copper swords to get some slag bars, then smelt the slag bars and end up with a bar of platinum.  Worse, I'm better off having a novice melt my copper items, because then I get more slag -- and under your system, slag is far more valuable than copper (since it has the potential to sometimes smelt into a more valuable metal.)

I agree, you do not want slag to give any "positive" benefit, other then the fact that it gives you near infinite chance to continuous extract more percentage of original metal out (at the cost of more fuel needed).

[Impaler[WrG]]

This is the Slag refining reaction I use,


[REACTION:REFINE_SLAG]
[NAME:Refine Slag]
[SMELTER]
[REAGENT:2:BAR:NO_SUBTYPE:METAL:SLAG]
[PRODUCT:15:1:BAR:NO_SUBTYPE:METAL:COPPER]
[PRODUCT:10:1:BAR:NO_SUBTYPE:METAL:NICKEL]
[PRODUCT:10:1:BAR:NO_SUBTYPE:METAL:ZINC]
[PRODUCT:5:1:BAR:NO_SUBTYPE:METAL:TIN]
[PRODUCT:15:1:BAR:NO_SUBTYPE:METAL:LEAD]
[PRODUCT:5:1:BAR:NO_SUBTYPE:METAL:BISMUTH]
[PRODUCT:15:1:BAR:NO_SUBTYPE:METAL:IRON]
[PRODUCT:5:1:BAR:NO_SUBTYPE:METAL:SILVER]
[PRODUCT:2:1:BAR:NO_SUBTYPE:METAL:GOLD]
[PRODUCT:1:1:BAR:NO_SUBTYPE:METAL:PLATINUM]
[FUEL]

The chances for precious metal are vanishingly small, common metals like Iron, Copper and Lead only add up to a 45% probability and all the rest add up too 33% so your on average getting less then one bar of usable metal from 2 bars of Slag so its by no means a way to get rich, I have all my ores spitting off a bit of Slag when their smelted and the the main incentive to refine slag is to diversify your metals when your on a map that has limited types of metal (Caravan imports are notorious poor at supplying metal).

In reality it might even be appropriate to diversify slag into three or more types that originate from different ore groups, in nature certain metals tend to congregate together so the slag from copper smelting will have trace silver and gold in it ware Iron slag would have trace nickel in it.

[SirHoneyBadger]

Impaler: That sounds really great to me. If you want to write up your "3 types of slag" idea, while keeping the proportion of the most valuable metals vanishingly small (maybe even less than you've already got), in a way that will correspond with what I've already got going (in other words: featuring a wide variety of different types of metals, and an enormous amount of alloys), I'll gladly add it to my Mod.

[Impaler[WrG]]

I also have an extensive Alloy mod of my own focused on real ores and real Alloys, perhaps we can trade some data.  Here is a Diagram I made to organize the Alloy system I created, I focused on creating 'real world' alloys from the existing elemental metals.  I also aimed for a fully binary system, every alloy is formed from 1 bar each of two different metals.  The complex alloys of three or more metals are formed with either a 2 bar or 4 bar reaction and all such reactions are 'logical' in that nothing is being created or destroyed or changing type.  I've also made all the Alloying reactions fuel-less.

I also wrote up the 3 slag proposal based on a bit of cursory research, each Slag reaction takes two bars and yields on average 3/4 of a bar of metal, some balance testing will reveal if this is appropriate, the slag are called Iron slag, Copper slag and Lead slag and each Ore smelt produces one of these types of slag, the copper slag has the best chance to yield precious metals and the Lead slag produces a very small amount of Silver, the Iron yields only base metals.

I also redesigned the whole Ore system, each ore is in some way unique and their are a half dozen new ores that are based on research into prospecting field guides, I've tried to give them as colloquial a name as possible and a good variety of colors.  Smelting is more random now with each ore having a number of 'rolls' on producing a metal bar, all the rolls are 50/50 probability and the richest metals get 5 rolls, the most precious ores only 1 or 2.  Most of the new ores are bi-metallic, Lead should be much more common as well.

Iron is more complex, their are now 5 forms of Iron, Bloom Iron, Pig Iron, Wrought Iron, Cast Iron and good old Steel.  Iron Ore can be smelted into Bloom or Pig Iron (Pig Iron requires Flux), Pig Iron is purified to Cast Iron which is only usable for non-weapons or Reworked to  Wrought Iron as can Bloom Iron (but Bloom Iron to Wrought Iron is less efficient), Steel is made from Cast Iron and Wrought Iron and has a 50% chance of producing Steel and always returns the Cast Iron used.  This overly complex process is designed to make Steel harder to get and one up the already current Iron system with one even more needlessly complex and realistic.

http://dffd.wimbli.com/file.php?id=1011



The number after the metal name is its value (alloys tend to have a slight value gain over the ingredients), Values in Cyan brackets denote Armor/Weapon values for the metal, Iron is better for weapons, Bronze for Armor, Lead is a strong Ammo.

Squares are the elemental metals, Lozenges are secondary Alloys formed from two elemental metals, Ellipses are tertiary Alloys formed from combining at least one secondary Alloy or up too 3 elemental metals in a 4 bar reaction.  Stars denote new Alloys

[Pickerel]

I am going to have to speak in favor of the current system.  I don't know about any of you, but if any of you have done any metal smithing, you know that you lose a LOT of metal to things like fire scale and such.  You can begin with 2lb of metal end end up with a spoon weighing 0.5lb...

[SirHoneyBadger]

Pickerel: I don't disagree with you, except that I'd like to see the current system extensively elaborated and built upon. Impaler's slag idea seems like it would be useful for this, although if it could be made more difficult to harness, I'm all for that.

Impaler: I like your bloom iron idea, as well as the idea of steel returning iron.
I think I missed white copper, so I'll look into that as well. Everything else I've already got.

My system of alloying typically involves (or will) a loss of metal. If there's a way this excess could be transformed into slag, that would be terrific.

[Bunny]

I really like this idea.  At the very least it would make the loss of metal when melting made items down, and when crafting items, make more sense.  The way I understand it, if the reactions are kept basic, the whole thing with better smiths creating less slag should work the same was as with butchers and the "chunks" thay are left behind after they butcher something.

[Impaler[WrG]]

White Copper is the metal that the common 5 cent Nickel is made of, its a metal used in coinage for centuries, it composition is very close to 3 parts Copper 1 part Nickel and it has the silvery appearance of Nickel.

Alloying producing slag seems odd too me but if that's what floats your boat go ahead, I think you will have to use percentages to get the losses 'on average' what you want, say for instance your making Bronze from two bars, list the product out put as

[PRODUCT:90:1:BAR:NO_SUBTYPE:METAL:BRONZE]
[PRODUCT:90:1:BAR:NO_SUBTYPE:METAL:BRONZE]

That means you get two changes each 90% probability of 1 bronze bar, so on average you get 1.8 bars for two bar input.

[SirHoneyBadger]

I don't think I quite understand it yet, Impaler--I have to admit I'm still a beginner when it comes to actually coding things--but it sounds great.

Would that mean, though, that there would be a chance that you wouldn't end up with anything at all? Or would there just be a 90%+ chance of ending up with bronze, and a 10%- chance you'd end up with slag?

I'm thinking it's the latter...but I felt I'd better ask.

Alloys producing slag does sound strange, but I think it works if you think of the idea as being that the purity of the metal is in question. So that occasionally, you'd end up with something that wasn't useable/recogniseable as whatever you wanted to make.

And I agree with Bunny, the idea of slag itself is full of stars.

I'm very big on keeping metal limited, though, as far as my mod goes. Any kind of metal should be relatively rare, and precious metals are particularly scarce. There's still plenty of ore, but it takes more of it to produce a high quality bar. To me, that helps to better reflect a realistic economy.

It's possible to make, say, a platinum bar fairly easily (for the sake of the nobles), but it doesn't have nearly the value it would in the vanilla game. To get the full value out of it, it takes 3 times as much ore, and a total of 2 refining steps, not to mention extra fuel. The end-result (a bar of "Pure Platinum") is profitable, but it's a long road getting there. 

[Impaler[WrG]]

Each Product line is an independent 'roll' as far as I know their is no way to make it an either/or kind of logic.  By using two product entries at one bar a peace you have two independent 90% probability changes to get a bar so only 1% of the time will you get nothing, 18% of the time 1 bar and 81% chance of two bars.  Any slag production will likewise be an independent probability roll meaning you could get all the bars of metal and the slag or no bars and no slag, all you can be sure of it that over the long run you get a small loss of metal and a small gain in slag.

The only way to guarantee nothing 'disappears' is to have larger reactions that take multiple bars and have a 100% change of giving a quantity of bars which is less then the input quantity.  But this would have the effect of making smelting faster which is the opposite of what your aiming for.