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[Lav]

Wow. Just wow.

Well guys, it's a bit late here (in fact it's long past midnight) so I'll be brief and to the point.

First, I have no damn idea what the entire conflict is about. True, I seen Grail's criticism of Goron's work as a chairdwarf but I didn't expect to see such an escalation. Probably I will have to re-read the thread to understand what the hell happened.

Second, regarding Grail's (and Hilscher's) arguments. It seems to me that Grail has forgotten what kind of government we have here. And by this I mean democracy. And democracy doesn't mean that the community will immediately recognize and embrace the wisdom of your ideas. In fact, most of the time it's exactly the opposite.

By the way, there couldn't be any attempts to revise the voting system for the simple reason that we never had any official voting system in the first place. This system is still being discussed.

Third, regarding Goron's suggestion to remove Grail from the game. I strongly recommend to avoid making such motions in the future. If this is a kind of democracy which kicks out anyone who disagrees then I'd rather be a totalitarist. Personally, I feel the only reason for player removal from the game should be continued non-participation and inactivity, or resignation by the player himself. Which obviously does not apply to Hilscher who is very much active.

Anyway, if some dwarves decide to settle somewhere else - that's their right I guess. But that's equivalent to emigration in my book, even if the distance is short, which means that emigrating dwarves will lose their right to vote on the community issues.

Last in my list is Emmanovi's suggestion to write a Charter, or a Constitution, or whatever. But my brain is already turning off from lack of sleep so my opinion on this will have to wait until tomorrow.

[Yaddy1]

Third, regarding Goron's suggestion to remove Grail from the game. I strongly recommend to avoid making such motions in the future. If this is a kind of democracy which kicks out anyone who disagrees then I'd rather be a totalitarist. Personally, I feel the only reason for player removal from the game should be continued non-participation and inactivity, or resignation by the player himself. Which obviously does not apply to Hilscher who is very much active.

I agree completely. We should not kick anyone out ever unless there is a reason besides, "I don't like you."

[Hilscher]

...Snip...

I'm a big fan of ad hominem attacks. Big fan. I believe forced civility is an infringement on basic Human  (Dwarven?) expression; but I'd like to state for the record that I just scoured my posts on this forum and haven't found one instance of me calling anyone a fucktard, asshole, jackass, or any other kind of profanity. I haven't said fuck you to anyone, or even used any profane intensifiers like 'fucking,' which surprises me as that's a favorite of mine. So while I'm not clean of name calling; I've done so in character and out, I'd like to make it clear that it is not true I have started the use of profanity. I have nothing against those who have, though, well not for that reason anyway. Stay the course. Incivility is good. 

As for a charter, I've got the start of one going which you are free to copy or emulate. It's not finished yet, though. Say, anyone care to vote against the seconded motion to banish me. Seems a gross infringement of liberty to ban someone for free expression, anyway. I wrote protection from such acts into this charter.

---

We, the free Dwarves of Secession’s Redoubt, being chained neither by deity nor dwarf, do hereby secede from the settlement of Equalvoice. The act of secession, being the last resort of free individuals within a community, has not been made on impulse but after all other available options were exhausted. The record shows for all that repeated petitions of reason were made but ignored. For this reason, the interim government of Redoubt is hereby established to preserve tranquility among Dwarves, provide the means for their well being, create and protect their security, and above all safeguard Liberty for all its citizens.

Article I – Inalienable Rights

Section 1.

As a democratic community, the citizens of Redoubt, having ratified and agreed to this charter, have a free and unfettered right to openly voice their opinion and vote without fear of reprisals. No Dwarf may ever be harmed, banished, sanctioned, chained, or otherwise punished for his free right to express his or herself in so long as they are not coercing or aggressing upon another citizen.

Section 2.

Every Dwarf, having the basic freedoms of self-determination and self-sovereignty, is subject to no one but himself and his own word freely given. It shall not be the government’s place to infringe upon mobility; place bans or censorship; seize, or compel the forfeiture of, property without due cause and process; or otherwise make laws to prohibit anything, whether action or item, that a citizen may do so long as that action or item does not initiate aggression or coercion upon any other citizen or their right to do the same.

Section 3.

All citizens, having ratified this document and bound themselves by their word, are subject to the levies and taxes of the community. However, every levy and tax excised by the community must be legislated by the due democratic process of the citizens; with every citizen expected to meet these levies also being given a free and unfettered chance to vote on them.  No single Dwarf or group of Dwarves may be singled out and expected to pay more or less than any other citizen, whether they have more or have less. Taxes and levies shall be excised evenly across the community without exception. No Dwarf shall be compelled to fight against his will, share or forfeit his property without the due democratic process, or be forced into a line of work not of his choosing or against his will.


Article II – Democratic Process

Section 1. Democratic process shall be headed by an elected Chairdwarf whose executive powers are those of approving or denying special motions; recording and updating the records of motions and votes in a timely and orderly fashion; dictating reasonable time frames for the legislative meetings; and seeing that every citizen is given a free and unfettered right to voice his or her vote without coercion or aggression of any kind attempting to derail free discourse. The Chairdwarf’s term lasts one quarter and he or she can serve for no more than four quarters consecutively. The Chairdwarf can be replaced at any time by a special motion of no confidence which can be initiated at any time by any citizen. An unchallenged Chairdwarf automatically retains his seat, unless he or she steps down, but must be challenged no later than the fourth term, otherwise a run-off is automatically initiated in which a new Chairdwarf must be nominated, accept, and be seconded before any other business can proceed.

Section 2. Motions may be made by any citizen at any time during the first twenty-four hours of voting, after which the time for motions passes and open motions must be seconded no later than forty-eight hours from the beginning of voting. Any motion may be voted for or against at any time after the motion is legally made until the adjournment seventy-two hours from the start of voting, with any vote made in favor of another Dwarf’s motion naturally counting as a second. A simple majority of greater than fifty percent results in a successful vote at the conclusion of voting so long as it does not violate this charter, which is determined by the judicial arm of government. Voting sessions are made without exception on the first day of every quarter, on the first days of spring, summer, fall, and winter. These sessions may not be postponed or infringed upon for any reason whatsoever by any authority.

Section 3. Three Judicators are elected by standard democratic motion and vote, each serving three years on a staggered schedule resulting in one election for a different Judicial seat per year, to be held on the first day of spring each year with other standard motions and votes. The three Judicators oversee the validity of new legislature, and have the power to veto or repeal with a majority vote between them any new law being passed by The People. A veto or repealed law automatically is made a special motion which may be seconded and re-voted on immediately, but requiring a greater than sixty-six percent majority to pass again, after which point it cannot be judicially challenged again for a period of three years.

Section 4. The Director has considerable executive power to oversee the day-to-day running of the community, but may not undergo actions not voted on at a quarterly vote except for to provide for the common defense in an emergency. Even in such an event, the Director does not have the power to violate the liberties and laws laid out in this charter for any reason whatsoever, including the absolute prohibition of compelling Dwarves to fight against their will. If providing for the common defense calls for more soldiers than the present military can muster, then the Director has the power to initiate an emergency voting session to muster additional volunteers or find alternative solutions. The Director has the power to designate labor for all citizens, but may not under any circumstances designate that labor if the citizen specifically refuses to perform it. Additionally, the Director has the power to prioritize and choose between approved projects, as it is typical that not all projects are completed within a single season. However, all Director actions are judged by the community at the start of the next standard voting session when the Director is expected to provide full documentation and accountability for all his actions and required to do so should they be challenged or questioned. The Director has a term lasting for one year, and may be replaced by a special motion of no confidence initiated by any Dwarf at any time. The Director cannot serve more than two consecutive terms under any circumstances. A Director must always be challenged at the conclusion of his term, by a nomination, acceptance, and second followed by voting. The incumbent Director is always automatically re-nominated unless he or she voluntarily and specifically declines to run for another term.

Section 5. The Sheriff is an elected position of executive power whose job it is to enforce the liberties and laws of this charter and those passed by The People. The powers he is charged with are the authority to disarm and/or detain an unlawful Dwarf; and the power to lead the direction of army training and equipping. The Sheriff may never go above or outside the law for any purpose, and is subject to the laws that every other Dwarf is. The Sheriff’s term lasts five years, and may be replaced by a special motion of no confidence at any time by any Dwarf. The Sheriff may not serve more than two consecutive terms.

Section 6. Bookkeepers and other such civil servants are subject to appointment and dismissal by the post that creates them, unless legislated into higher prominence by standard motion and vote of The People. All appointments and dismissals must have, for any legitimate authority to be vested in them, the full disclosure to The People and ratification of them by special motion and vote; without exception.

Section 7. Special motions are those motions not put forward during standard motion windows on the first day of every season. These include votes of no confidence and other nullification votes; nomination and election votes not completed within standard voting windows, and any other pressing business not submitted during standard voting. These are subject to Chairdwarf approval or disapproval except for votes of no confidence which can never be disallowed at any time made by any citizen, and votes which may present a conflict of interest, as decided by a majority decision of the Judicature.

Section 8. Elections are votes dictating the transition or retention of the power of a governing post. These consist of a nomination, acceptance, second, and/or standard vote components. A dwarf may nominate himself, and then be seconded, foregoing an acceptance, or a dwarf may be nominated and and accept, his acceptance acting as a second for the vote. After both nomination and acceptance components are met, standard voting and a simple majority decides the results. Elections may never conflict over overlap, and always be clearly defined as to which post a Dwarf is being elected to.

---

EDIT:

Wow. Just wow.
...

Second, regarding Grail's (and Hilscher's) arguments. It seems to me that Grail has forgotten what kind of government we have here. And by this I mean democracy. And democracy doesn't mean that the community will immediately recognize and embrace the wisdom of your ideas. In fact, most of the time it's exactly the opposite.

I've forgotten nothing, but I'm going to exercise every last measure available to me to see that the important stuff is done right. You yourself have said you predict very bad consequences levied by reality onto us for our mistake, and I agree. I therefore have an obligation to throw as big a fit as possible to see that the mistake is not made in the first place; I haven''t coerced or aggressed upon anyone; I've merely used every liberty I have available to me to resist the tide of stupidity which now is down to out and out secession, and I still offer the reason and effort that no other Dwarf is willing to; so I refuse to see how I am in the wrong. At all.


EDIT EDIT: Made some changes to the wording of the outlaying of the Directorship's powers, and added in the power to prioritize and choose between which approved projects are done.

[LegoLord]

The charter seems sound to me.

Hilscher, "throwing a fit" about something is not going to convince anyone that you are right.  If anything, it will provoke such comments as Emmanovi referred to in his posts (not ones he made, but ones he mentioned) as well as cause individuals to take your stance less seriously.  Your wording in the charter suggests that you are in fact good at such things, but you simply choose the less widely accepted method of debate instead.  If you took on the sort of methods Emmanovi recommended, you may get better results.

I'm going to guess that the others who voted against mandatory training may have at least sub-consciously considered that an individual may want his dwarf to be a pacifist, maybe from being a pacifist or just for variety in the fort, as at least part of their reasoning for voting nay.  That motion would not allow that, so I voted nay.  We will have some more volunteer soldiers later on, too.  We will only need to keep the task of fortress defense on the shoulders of few for the brief time in our beginning in which we will see little conflict.

[Hilscher]

The charter seems sound to me.

Hilscher, "throwing a fit" about something is not going to convince anyone that you are right.  If anything, it will provoke such comments as Emmanovi referred to in his posts (not ones he made, but ones he mentioned) as well as cause individuals to take your stance less seriously.  Your wording in the charter suggests that you are in fact good at such things, but you simply choose the less widely accepted method of debate instead.  If you took on the sort of methods Emmanovi recommended, you may get better results.

I'm going to guess that the others who voted against mandatory training may have at least sub-consciously considered that an individual may want his dwarf to be a pacifist, maybe from being a pacifist or just for variety in the fort, as at least part of their reasoning for voting nay.  That motion would not allow that, so I voted nay.  We will have some more volunteer soldiers later on, too.  We will only need to keep the task of fortress defense on the shoulders of few for the brief time in our beginning in which we will see little conflict.

It's not my responsibility to hold anyone's hand with civility. Civility is the stepping stone to compromise, and compromise is the stepping stone to tyranny. My role has been hardline windbag ever since this thread almost died and I beat it back to life with my colossal dwarfy femme-balls. Being nicey-nicey wasn't the answer then and it isn't the answer now. If you reject reasoned arguments because of an ad hominem that's on you, not on me or anyone else who makes one.  I will not change my behavior because my behavior is a boon, not a liability. Besides, I never used an ad hominem until I had made an ignored appeal about three or four times when I started to grow frustrated with the community's pig-headedness. So many refuse to have open minds, which nurses a contempt in me for all of you who never even bother to have an open minded discussion on important issues. We've only had four seasons and I can't count how many times I've had to backpedal or change my support on something because of the reasoned arguments of Emmanovi or Lav. Even ones I started in some cases. I remember when I made the farms too big. I've been embarassed more than once by a zero-G pen/pencil incident. Water buckets to the waterfall, using an empty bedroom as an office instead of digging out a new room, etc. Can you say the same thing? If not then I have a valid reason to complain and 'throw a fit.' I have an obligation to. Mandatory training has nothing to do with violence or pacifism, it has to do with education and advancement. No one would ever be made to fight; that was unanimously agreed upon by everyone and yet you continue to make that non-issue an issue. My argument is that it is a way to levy a tiny tax upon the community that did not infringe upon any liberties and served to make the community stronger by putting a pick in everyone's hands if they didn't choose some other weapon, as a minimal form of self defense, and give them some minimal training to go along with it so that everyone would be able to stand their own if a calamitous event took place and they were attacked. Let's be clear. The military cannot protect everyone all the time, and when it fails to get between you and the enemy as it inevitably will, its purpose ceases to be to protect you and becomes to clean up the mess and make sure it doesn't happen again. But we've laid out so many reasons for it and you've laid out so few reasons against it. Because you don't have to, because none of you change your vote. Hence my fury, and my redoubt. Deal with it, quit crying to me about incivility. The concept of civility is a mechanism of control and tyranny, and I'm not going to have it.

[LegoLord]

Well, I tried to calm this down at least.  But one last thing - compromise is not tyranical; US laws are full of compromise.  Tyrants just do whatever they want.  Open-mindedness has a tendency towards compromise.

Anyway, I vote aye for that charter.

[Hilscher]

Well, I tried to calm this down at least.  But one last thing - compromise is not tyranical; US laws are full of compromise.  Tyrants just do whatever they want.  Open-mindedness has a tendency towards compromise.

Anyway, I vote aye for that charter.

...And the USA is neither free nor a democracy. Reality doesn't compromise. Men do.

[LegoLord]

Look, Hilscher, this behavior is not making this fun!  Got it?  The point of this, when you get to the absolute bottom of it, is to be an enjoyable project.  Calling people names all the time and insulting their decisions simply because they don't agree with your own, personal logic is ruining that.  If that keeps up, we might as well just give this up.  I really don't feel like doing this at all if you're going to be acting like this every time some of us don't agree with you.  This is a game and it should be treated as such, especially given the game's motto:  "Losing is Fun!"

[Hilscher]

Look, Hilscher, this behavior is not making this fun!  Got it?  The point of this, when you get to the absolute bottom of it, is to be an enjoyable project.  Calling people names all the time and insulting their decisions simply because they don't agree with your own, personal logic is ruining that.  If that keeps up, we might as well just give this up.  I really don't feel like doing this at all if you're going to be acting like this every time some of us don't agree with you.  This is a game and it should be treated as such, especially given the game's motto:  "Losing is Fun!"

Shut up, Johnny Quest. If you don't like me being a mean ol' name caller you can just support the motion to ban me for it, that'd bring the total up to 3, and no one has yet opposed the motion, despite speaking against it. You can do it.

[Goron]

I guess what this all comes down to is I am not talking about in game problems.
I don't like Hilscher- the poster. Not Grail, the character.

So for me it has nothing to do with 'democracy' or 'presenting arguments' or 'motions' its got to do with the fact that Hilscher is an asshat. Notice I said "Hilscher" and not "Grail".

So you can say 'this is how democracy works' blah blah blah all you want, but the point is, I am not going to be involved in this thread at all when we have someone attempting to undermine the fun of it.

Shall I start providing examples?
First off, Hilscher essentially hijacked Lav's community fortress. Not a big deal, Lav doesn't seem to mind, but the way Hilscher wrote just started to reek of 'There is only one possible way, and it is my way'

Well if it isn't then Lav needs to say something, but if you re-read the OP for this thread, it's pretty obvious it was meant to be a succession game. What with rules for 'whichever player' is controlling the fort during a season between votes being allowed to do whatever they want short of suicide charges, so long as they worked towards the goals voted on. That can only be interpreted one way.

Sounds pretty harmless by itself... but when that is a follow up to this post:

I don't think that's how it works, Hilscher.  I asked about that when I signed up, and the response stated that it would only be a succession game if we decided on that by vote.

it becomes obvious Hilscher is exerting a 'you are wrong, re-read the post and you will see I am right, like always'.  Still, not the biggest problem in the world, but it helped to set the stage...

...and then the negativity came out:

(Meh, I think this thread/game died.)

... thank god Emmanovi followed up with a pro-active post and kept things going with a positive attitude.

This next post strikes three points:
1) Hilscher is indeed attempting to progress the game (a good thing)
2) But without regard for community (a bad thing)
3) and under his own rules... This is the first time I have seen the 'voting format' announced, under not vote, no ratification, nothing. he just invented it am implemented it. That was fine- it worked- but when he more recently made an outcry (ill get to it later) about how his format is not used (when in reality it was, just minus the re-recording of votes) and declared his format was the format, it really bugged me.

(Taking time to get things done is not the problem. The extremely low post-rate and post-volume is, though. We need timely voting and content updates. It can't take two weeks - or however long it has been - for a season to resolve ever again. Let's get a seasonal update, Lav. I'm still here, but I'm ready to bounce if things don't change. We have at least three Dwarves who have not said a word - they should be replaced ASAP.

Hence, I hereby move that Martian, (Voksdon) « Last Post in this thread on: May 08, 2009, 09:38:50 AM » be nullified and his place made open for someone new.

I further move that Goron, (Goron) « Last Post in this thread on: May 08, 2009, 07:29:41 PM » be likewise nullified and replaced.

I lastly move that Katsuun, (Kat) be nullified and freed up for someone else if, as Lav suggests, Katsuun has gone inactive.

I allot 24 hours for these measures to be seconded, and then an additional 48 for them to be voted on by the remaining members of the thread before being resolved at 5:00 PM CST 2009.27.5)

You may ask, 'how was that without regard for the community, Goron?' - Simple, LegoLord's response made it clear:

Did you PM them?

Did you PM them?

No, feel free to, though, if you haven't already. They have a right to know that these motions have been made.

Quick to kick, quick to 'appear sympathetic' but lacking in any kind action.

Then we have the onslaught:

I think it's only fair to give them a chance via PM, just so we can be sure they are aware.

I'm happy with succession. I conditionally second the motions, given that they have been PMed.

Hilscher motioned to have me removed, received conditional support. Everyone but him had a level of sympathy. Not to mention, Emmanovi's conditional second was violated. I never received a PM. Hilscher, in game and out, over stepped his bounds and continued the vote to remove me.

When I made an appearance, I get this:

Wait, am I still here? You can convert Kat for Goron, I don't mind.

2Goron. If you are back - welcome. :-)

Grail IIRC assigned Martian's dwarf to me, not yours.

Thanks Katsuun and Lav, its nice to see some people are not asshats!
And then this:

(You're still in the game, and the vote to remove you, or Kat for that matter, will not resolve for another 24 hours. If you want to play, I'm sure you can convince Lav and Emmanovi to change their votes.)

Interesting... At first glance this seems genuine and kind. He has indicated there is a way for me to stay in game... but then you need to take a step back and remember that the vote to remove me was invalid in the first place as I got no PM. and then you can continue to read this:

That is why I have not changed my vote to nullify Goron's dwarf, because I don't think people change. I think this trend will continue.

...and it all becomes clear. He chose his words carefully in the quote before, indicating I may be able to change other peoples votes, but after this post its obvious he id not include his name along with Lav and Emmanovi for a reason.

In the proper Democratic method I will protest Emmanovi's vote to nullify me. I bring quote A as evidence for my cause:

I conditionally second the motions, given that they have been PMed.

I at no time received a single PM from anyone about anything- much less a PM regarding my lack of activity

its a pity I had to expose Hilcher's cheating the system to sway votes.

And then his laziness and hostility to Org begins:

Yes
Yes
Yes
No
Yes
No
Yes

In that order

So helpful.

EDIT: Just to be clear, I'm not going to adjudicate these votes until I know specifically which things you are voting yes to and no to. Sorry, but vagueness is not helpful to me in my task.

He blatantly declares he will not tally votes just because he does not like how they were made- they were against his format.

Well, I really support anything I haven't actively talked about.  So aye to anything I haven't already been marked as having voted for.

Yeah, as I said with Org, that doesn't really fly. You have to specifically say what you vote for and which way you vote or it's an automatic abstain. -_-

If its not his way, its no way. God forbid we actually have fun while trying to cut through the red tape.

And then the impatience comes out:

(How's that update coming, Org? -_-)

The text in its own is fine, the face adds expression...

(Then why'd you accept the task as being director? Delays are bad. I nominated you to find out if you'd do a good job. It only takes ten to thirty minutes to do a season. We've been waiting for days. Squeeze in the rest already. Your update was good, but let's finish it up already.)

for not being a fan of ad hominem attacks, he sure is damn good at making them.

Org, as resident jackass, it is my duty to inform you that you suck.

This was a well hidden gratuitous ad hominem attack... or maybe not that hidden.

Now I present the rest of the crew's response to the situation:

Org, I don't want to sound impatient or demanding, but by my reckoning it has been a week since your last update. I would ask that you either complete the season within some reasonable time, say 24 hours, or the turn is conceded and taken by someone else. I don't know the others' stance on this, but if one season might be taking this long to resolve, then when debating time is added in the fortress will develop at an alarmingly slow rate. Hence this special motion, which I make out of necessity. I suppose it's up to the chairdwarf to ratify it.

Wow, he points out the problem (in a non-negative way) and presents solutions. SOunds good to me.

P. S. I suggest that Org either completes his turn within 24 hours or at least uploads current game state so the next player could continue from then onwards.

Another one that does not contain any direct attacks on org, but rather addresses the issue.

And my post:

As for Org's absence. I will execute some chairdwarf power and start a delayed vote of no confidence in the current directorship. This vote will be to replace the current director, Org. It is delayed, in that we provide him 24 hours to step down, finish, or hand off the incomplete save from the time that this idea was first suggested... here:

Org, I don't want to sound impatient or demanding, but by my reckoning it has been a week since your last update. I would ask that you either complete the season within some reasonable time, say 24 hours, or the turn is conceded and taken by someone else.

and 'seconded' here:

P. S. I suggest that Org either completes his turn within 24 hours or at least uploads current game state so the next player could continue from then onwards.

The time of that post was 6:23:11 AM EST on Tuesday June 09, 2009. 24 hours from that time, 6:23:11 AM EST on Wednesday June 10, 2009 we will hold a vote of no confidence assuming the situation is still unresolved.

Notice how I actually fashion a motion, based on actual posts and seconds and within the conditions presented. Oh, and not to mention I at least had the common courtesy of sending him a PM.

And despite all this, we still get the default negative from hilscher:

I say we scrap Org's turn and just nominate a new person to pick up Emmanovi's save state. I'm glad others are as impatient as I am.

No Hilscher, others are not as impatient as you. We are giving him a chance, we are following with vote, and we PMed him.

And guess what, it seems PMs work cuz he responded very quickly... only to get shot at:

Then you shouldn't have taken the post. It takes thirty minutes to finish your season and upload the save. Do it. Otherwise I'm in favor of replacing you immediately. The time you have taken on a single season is unacceptable.

And then we have my favorite post:

Lastly, Goron you're doing a bad job as chairman. You're not showing who is in favor and who is against. Voting starts as soon as a motion is made. Motions have 24 hours, Seconds have 48 hours, Voting has all 72 hours. The overlap is what makes the system work, it's what I was having issues with the first time. Color coding makes for easier reading, too.

[...snip...]

By the way, great job on your season, Lav.)

 Wow... this one really threw me off. Hilscher throws a one two punch with some sneakiness here... One: "Goron you're doing a bad job as chairman" - ouch my kidney, Two: "By the way, great job on your season, Lav" - ouch, uppercut. ... what was that about gratuitous ad hominem attacks Hilscher?

I didn't even know how to respond... I mean, first he accuses me of not showing who is in favor and who is against... something that I suppose I can indicate is true. I did not update the motions list with votes until after all motions were in... I felt it was more important to focus on who was proposing the motions at the time. Then he accuses me of messing the system up...going into detail abotu how many hours this and that has... yet, I clearly indicated:

Once the time to vote rolls along, I will do my best to look through these 'vote' posts to try and tally your votes- but I would very much appreciate if you could 're-vote' tomorrow...

I am curious how Hilscher got "I am not accepting votes at all and they do not count" out of that?
Then he goes on to talk about color coding!!! I guess maybe he is just colorblind to blue and yellow...

I mean, I hardly even needed to defend myself, Emmanovi did a great job for me:

Lastly, Goron you're doing a bad job as chairman. You're not showing who is in favor and who is against. Voting starts as soon as a motion is made. Motions have 24 hours, Seconds have 48 hours, Voting has all 72 hours. The overlap is what makes the system work, it's what I was having issues with the first time. Color coding makes for easier reading, too.

As far as I am aware, we never properly ratified that voting system (or did we?), and I would hold that Goron is free to conduct the meeting in whatever way he likes. If we are dissatisfied with his conduct and methods, we can move to replace him, but I wouldn't go that far. A simple request to begin tallying votes and to show who is in favour and against might be more diplomatic. Currently he does seem to be using colour coding, and he's very helpfully linked to the original posts so we can see how the motion was made.

Then this post is what really thre me over:

I'm starting to get disillusioned. I'm not even going to bother to object to the revisioning of the voting system. You're opening it up to all kinds of abuses and flaws, but whatever. It really, truly doesn't make any difference to lay out logic and reason because no one bothers taking it in anyway. This is why political parties form, because they're not going to listen to reason, just pandering. Petty, empty alliances of friends will form to vote the same way regardless of reason. Better to be a free thinking loose cannon aimed at everyone. In theory anyway. Force shits on reason in the end, so in the grand scheme of things I guess it's better to be a flunkie tool.

Right now I don't even know what motions are up and being voted on. I was hoping the precedent Emmanovi and I started would hold, but I guess not. This equates to confusing ballots driving voter participation down. Apathy, yay. I think it's time for Grail to go off and create Protester's Redoubt to the north. Let me know when you have a charter.

It starts off completely negative, definitely not contributing to the fun. Then he goes on with "Right now I don't even know what motions are up and being voted on." which was absolutely absurd. I kept a clear list of every motion, with direct links to the original posts, the status (moved, seconded) and color coding, updated every couple of hours with new motions/seconds. Its quite obvious Hilscher was just trying to be an asshat at this point.
Then this: " I was hoping the precedent Emmanovi and I started would hold, but I guess not." What amazes me is I did not differ from that precedent (I notice it is a 'precedent' now and not the official only possible way like he previously treated it, ever since Emmanovi put him in his place) in any way except that i did not re-record votes until after the first 24 hour period. that was the only difference. Again, Hilscher was just trying to be an asshat.

I challenge him:

How is it open to abuse and flaws? Please explain? Your last post only criticized and never presented any suggestions or solutions, don't claim no one takes in logic and reason when you never presented any in the first place.

and he dodges the question:

Nice try Goron. I've been presenting reason all this time, and now I've given up.

Was there a post I missed somewhere? One in which he actually presented reason about how my methods were not right? I can't seem to find it. And he obviously can't seem to find it, else he prolly would have pointed to it. Nah, he was just back to being an asshat.



notice all my issues and quotes and such with Hilscher have nothing to do with in-game issues? I will say it again, I don't like Hilscher, the person- not Grail. So it has nothing to do with 'thats how democracy works' or 'disagreement over issues'. He makes this thread hostile and unfun.

[Hilscher]

TL;DR.

[Org]

Wow. Really?

its not that long. I read it.

[Hilscher]

Wow. Really?

its not that long. I read it.

Really, really? It takes me 6 or 7 scrolls of my mouse3 button to get past that. I just realized mirthfully, however, that he actually took the time to meticulously go through this entire thread to build a case for what an arrogant dick I am, even though I already admitted that I am without shame; AND no one has voted against his spiteful motion. Glad someone took the time to read it, Org. Would have been a massive waste of effort without you to validate him.

EDIT: I just measured. It's twice as long as my charter, and I thought that was a long post. So while he was writing up his indictment of mean ol' Hilscher, I was writing up something useful. Tee hee.

[Org]

Oh. Im on my computer which has a quite large screen.

[LegoLord]

Good lord.  Hilscher, there wouldn't even be a problem if you could just be civil.  We might even have more participants.  Goron has a point; you are extremely pushy about things and are undermining the fun of this.  If how the votes are turning out really bothers you that much, you're probably better off playing your own fort by yourself so you don't ruin things for others.  You'll probably have more fun that way.  If it doesn't bother you as much as you would lead us to believe, then you have no call to act the way you are, and all your fuss merely amounts to trolling.

And while yes, you did write up that charter, at the same time you continued with your ongoing  self-righteous rant about how stupid we all are.  Any responses attacking you were provoked, and I can forgive them for that.  You, however, have been all kinds of rude and obnoxious without any sort of provocation.  That sort of behavior can only cause distress.