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Author Topic: Dwarven Democracy (community game)  (Read 30550 times)

Org

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Re: Dwarven Democracy (community game)
« Reply #390 on: June 11, 2009, 01:21:36 pm »

What? I almost always vote. I lack forethought? I know ho to play this, and I vote on how I have plated this game.


Fuck you Hilscher.
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Hilscher

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Re: Dwarven Democracy (community game)
« Reply #391 on: June 11, 2009, 01:41:12 pm »

What? I almost always vote. I lack forethought? I know ho to play this, and I vote on how I have plated this game.


Fuck you Hilscher.

Don't like it turned back on you, do you? Well, "Sorry, but not really."

Oh, and Goron. I've not had my way on at least a dozen things, and the only things I made a fuss over were the Refuse pile and this Training Issue. It's just that when I do make a fuss, I make one. This Training issue is important enough to secede for and force change. And there's nothing wrong with that, you crybaby, and why your spiteful vote to remove me will fail.
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Yaddy1

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Re: Dwarven Democracy (community game)
« Reply #392 on: June 11, 2009, 01:43:31 pm »

Yaddy looks from arguing dwarf to arguing dwarf and sighs. "Is this what we risked our lives for? Petty arguments and fighting amongst ourselves? I thought we came here to create a democracy!" Yaddy says this desperately. He takes a deep breath then continues calmly. "But now I understand. A democracy needs rules. So I will go with Grail to the North until a charter is formed."
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LegoLord

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Re: Dwarven Democracy (community game)
« Reply #393 on: June 11, 2009, 02:18:30 pm »

You know, Hilscher, I've been trying to be patient up until now.  Now I think I need to say something.  The arguing over issues is keeping this from being fun.  Whenever some one votes for an issue you deem important, you restate your case.  Every time.  It makes it hard to find the list we're voting on.  I have to agree with Org - I vote on how I play.  Not just the game in general, but community games as well.  Not everyone needs to post their reasoning behind each and every vote.  That's what the motions are for - to provide a case.

If Org says "everything except X," I don't see why it wouldn't be easy to just put "Org" next to everything other than "X."

Now please, stop the fuss and just make motions and votes like everyone else does.  Making a fuss over something does not help.
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"Oh look there is a dragon my clothes might burn let me take them off and only wear steel plate."
And this is how tinned food was invented.
Alternately: The Brick Testament. It's a really fun look at what the bible would look like if interpreted literally. With Legos.
Just so I remember

Hilscher

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Re: Dwarven Democracy (community game)
« Reply #394 on: June 11, 2009, 02:27:01 pm »

Yaddy looks from arguing dwarf to arguing dwarf and sighs. "Is this what we risked our lives for? Petty arguments and fighting amongst ourselves? I thought we came here to create a democracy!" Yaddy says this desperately. He takes a deep breath then continues calmly. "But now I understand. A democracy needs rules. So I will go with Grail to the North until a charter is formed."

Very well, two person version.

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Hilscher

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Re: Dwarven Democracy (community game)
« Reply #395 on: June 11, 2009, 02:37:37 pm »

You know, Hilscher, I've been trying to be patient up until now.  Now I think I need to say something.  The arguing over issues is keeping this from being fun.  Whenever some one votes for an issue you deem important, you restate your case.  Every time.  It makes it hard to find the list we're voting on.  I have to agree with Org - I vote on how I play.  Not just the game in general, but community games as well.  Not everyone needs to post their reasoning behind each and every vote.  That's what the motions are for - to provide a case.

If Org says "everything except X," I don't see why it wouldn't be easy to just put "Org" next to everything other than "X."

Now please, stop the fuss and just make motions and votes like everyone else does.  Making a fuss over something does not help.

Well then I am granting your wish to peace and harmony by seceding. You will soon see that a true democracy requires the arguing you seem to hate to function. Your post is actually self-contradictory in that you want everyone to state their case but not argue. When people disagree, they argue. Yes, I restate my case in order to lay out reasons why you should change your vote. And you never do. You seem to be misunderstanding the issue in the first place. I am seceding to force a baseline set of legislature to be established since the three leading dwarves of the fort apparently can't do it on their own. Let's be clear, that's Lav, Emmanovi, and Grail. If you'll recall, this all began because we were trying to figure out what sort of basic rights should be enumerated in the charter. When it came to a few measly months of training out of your whole dwarf's life, the shit hit the proverbial fan and you gridlocked us on it, and we couldn't proceed. So we'll never get a charter up. So I, and apparently Yaddy, will be moving to the Redoubt until such a charter is established. Thus your work pool will be reduced by our freely chosen wills to remove ourselves from it, and you will either continue without a charter or be forced to make one at which point we can choose to agree to that charter and repatriate and abide by its law. Then again, you probably won't even read this, which is the problem I am growing frustrated with. I'm seceding; it's just something you have to deal with one way or another.
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Goron

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Re: Dwarven Democracy (community game)
« Reply #396 on: June 11, 2009, 03:21:48 pm »

pshh, my dislike of Hilscher has nothing to do with 'restating cases' or 'arguing over in game stuff'. Its purely because he is an asshole.
He was a dick to kat, he was  a dick to Org, he was a dick to me. That's all. I'd never raise serious issue over 'in game stuff' because thats what makes this fun, keeping things in game. But Hilscher is a general asshat outside of the game. Thus, it limits the fun I experience, and as such makes me question whether its worth my time participating in this thread when we have a resident fucktard that just likes to bring people down.

I actually appreciate the ingame arguments he brings forward- they were fun. I appreciate the art he makes and the design and planning. But I do not appreciate his 'OOC' attitude.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2009, 03:23:41 pm by Goron »
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Hilscher

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Re: Dwarven Democracy (community game)
« Reply #397 on: June 11, 2009, 03:27:17 pm »

pshh, my dislike of Hilscher has nothing to do with 'restating cases' or 'arguing over in game stuff'. Its purely because he is an asshole.
He was a dick to kat, he was  a dick to Org, he was a dick to me. That's all. I'd never raise serious issue over 'in game stuff' because thats what makes this fun, keeping things in game. But Hilscher is a general asshat outside of the game. Thus, it limits the fun I experience, and as such makes me question whether its worth my time participating in this thread when we have a resident fucktard that just likes to bring people down.

I actually appreciate the ingame arguments he brings forward- they were fun. I appreciate the art he makes and the design and planning. But I do not appreciate his 'OOC' attitude.

They're one and the same thing. The Social Contract is what holds people back. I am an asshole, I won't even argue that. I embrace it. But I'm not an asshole without reason. I simply don't pander to make and keep friends. I tell it how I see it, and I don't compromise reason. I won't apologize for that. If you don't like it, it's your own fault.
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LegoLord

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Re: Dwarven Democracy (community game)
« Reply #398 on: June 11, 2009, 03:37:44 pm »

I simply don't pander to make and keep friends. I tell it how I see it, and I don't compromise reason. I won't apologize for that. If you don't like it, it's your own fault.
This attitude does not help to create a fun atmosphere in which to play a forum game.  I'm glad I declined when you nominated me for overseer that one busy week I had; I'm sure this issue would have broken out sooner, with me in Org's place.
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"Oh look there is a dragon my clothes might burn let me take them off and only wear steel plate."
And this is how tinned food was invented.
Alternately: The Brick Testament. It's a really fun look at what the bible would look like if interpreted literally. With Legos.
Just so I remember

Emmanovi

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Re: Dwarven Democracy (community game)
« Reply #399 on: June 11, 2009, 03:52:03 pm »

I... I'm not quite sure how to respond.

When I last posted, four or five hours ago, I was looking forward to a debate and resolution of some of our conflicts, hopefully providing consensus which would clear things up. I expected some degree of "arguing", or debate as I prefer to term it - such debate is rational, and it's how we learn one another's point of view.

But I returned some minutes ago to find a number of angrily written posts, which rather than settling issues have raised several more. To say that I am surprised would be something of an understatement. If this has all originated from the idea of mandatory training, then I'm regretful that such an issue was ever raised. We cannot afford strife; we came here for a degree of unity and equality.

I'm not normally a reprimanding person, but I feel that some of our conduct here needs some criticism. Up until recently, our language had been civil - sometimes strongly worded, but clean. Grail and Goron have introduced several instances of profanity in several posts. Others, I think, have followed. I can understand anger and vexation, but please, I think such language was unwarranted. We can resolve things in a civil manner. We have done so before.

Grail and Yaddy retain the right to secede. They are exercising this right by digging out a redoubt to the North and remaining there until consensus and a charter are passed. My understanding is that they will remove themselves from the community until they are satisfied with the decisions it makes. I think they have a right to do so.

Can we please refrain from agression, insults and arguments which are not contributing to anything.

Right. It is desired that a Charter be ratified. I propose that we postpone the current meeting to deal with this issue, as it is disrupting our system and causing a rift which is driving apart the community. I suggest we work to create a simple bill of rights, as suggested by Grail, so that we can at least make clear the basic principles of this society.

I would like to say something, directed at Grail but also for all to hear. "...since the three leading dwarves of the fort apparently can't do it on their own. Let's be clear, that's Lav, Emmanovi, and Grail." [Grail's post]. Now, there may be some dwarves who are more prominent in the community, more active perhaps, having done more perhaps. This does not make us leading dwarves. This does not give us any more rights, any higher status, or, indeed anything than other dwarves. We are EQUAL here, this is EQUALVOICE. Some dwarves are invested with certain powers, but that power is given by the community, for the good of the community.

I would say that we have the right to post as much reasoning as we like when voting. So long as in that post it is clear that we support a motion or are voting against it, I don't see the problem. The list of motions is kept seperate, and should be highly visible owing to its colour coding and so forth.

A Democracy does need people to kick up a fuss if the situation requires it. I think in this case, we are somewhat uncertain on some base principles, which is causing a rift. I'm imploring the community as a whole to work together now to create a bill of rights, a charter for Equalvoice, to make it scintillatingly clear to everyone what we stand for and what the rights and responsibilities of dwarves are.

THE CHARTER OF EQUALVOICE
Created by the League of Liberty

Of course, it is currently blank. If others are agreed upon making one, then I am very happy to suggest articles, or to write drafts if needs be. I have no desire to see this community fall apart through strife when we can rise above it and make a better home for every dwarf.

Argh. I'm sorry. This has unsettled me. Please, people. Let's work together, not against one another.

{Might I add that it took me long enough to write and rationalise that post that the earlier time comments are now utterly inaccurate...}
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This is Dwarf Fortress, a masterly crafted game. It is adorned with bands of epic, and is studded with spikes of awesome. On the game is an image of a toad and many dwarves. The dwarves are worshipping the toad. The toad is laughing. The dwarves are dying.

Goron

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Re: Dwarven Democracy (community game)
« Reply #400 on: June 11, 2009, 04:03:00 pm »

Legon, I seem to have lost your post in which you indicated your votes. I believe you voted yes for issues 3 and onward (at the time of your post, so not all of them, since some have added since then), but I can't find that post anymore, as such, I don't want to count those votes unless I am sure they are still valid.

Oh, and the list is updated

LegoLord

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Re: Dwarven Democracy (community game)
« Reply #401 on: June 11, 2009, 04:09:22 pm »

I vote against such extensive exploratory mining.  If we do too much, we won't have any good, large spaces for digging any future subterranean mega-projects we may end up having.  I suggest we keep exploratory mining to a single area and just let the natural growth of the fort do exploratory mining for us everywhere else.

Besides, we can only use the resources we find by the latter method so quickly - the prior method can wait until we need it.

I will vote nay for one-season-per-year military training.  Dwarves could get into military lock if they stayed in the fort too long.
Oh, whoops.  I vote  for the position of sheriff/captain of the guard to have terms.

Militia members can be voluntary (it is not stated otherwise in the motion), and emergency draft seems like something to do if we are being over run - it doesn't seem like there'd be much other choice in that case.  As it's name suggests, it is an emergency draft, and as such should only be used in an emergency where it is likely to lose more dwarves without it rather than with it.
There are my old votes, let me look at the list again to work out the rest that I had previously listed by number.

Edit:  Okay, after looking at each of other motions no previously mentioned, I find each one reasonable and vote aye, with the exception of not allowing dwarves to be wrestlers by profession.  While they may not be the most effective soldiers, there are other members of the military, and people should be allowed the choice.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2009, 04:16:22 pm by LegoLord »
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"Oh look there is a dragon my clothes might burn let me take them off and only wear steel plate."
And this is how tinned food was invented.
Alternately: The Brick Testament. It's a really fun look at what the bible would look like if interpreted literally. With Legos.
Just so I remember

Goron

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Re: Dwarven Democracy (community game)
« Reply #402 on: June 11, 2009, 04:14:53 pm »


There are my old votes, let me look at the list again to work out the rest that I had previously listed by number.
thanks, I will update once you repost.
I've got a question... you say:
Quote
Militia members can be voluntary (it is not stated otherwise in the motion), and emergency draft seems like something to do if we are being over run - it doesn't seem like there'd be much other choice in that case.  As it's name suggests, it is an emergency draft, and as such should only be used in an emergency where it is likely to lose more dwarves without it rather than with it.
So.... yes or no or abstain to the motion for the militia, and
yes or no or abstain to the emergency draft?

You are saying yes, I think, but you add some conditional statements... so please clarify just so I am sure I get it right:-)

LegoLord

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Re: Dwarven Democracy (community game)
« Reply #403 on: June 11, 2009, 04:22:58 pm »

Yes to both of those issues (btw, edited my last post with newer votes).  I was merely explaining how they are not mutually exclusive with voluntary military service.  A militia is as I understand it (for clarification), and as used in the United States constitution (which might not be a bad place to look to for certain issues), an armed civilian force that is present to fight when, for example, fighters are needed in an area immediately and no soldiers are within such a distance, but work as normal civilians during normal times.  This actually ties in somewhat with the emergency draft.
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"Oh look there is a dragon my clothes might burn let me take them off and only wear steel plate."
And this is how tinned food was invented.
Alternately: The Brick Testament. It's a really fun look at what the bible would look like if interpreted literally. With Legos.
Just so I remember

Goron

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Re: Dwarven Democracy (community game)
« Reply #404 on: June 11, 2009, 04:26:51 pm »

Yes to both of those issues (btw, edited my last post with newer votes).  I was merely explaining how they are not mutually exclusive with voluntary military service.  A militia is as I understand it (for clarification), and as used in the United States constitution (which might not be a bad place to look to for certain issues), an armed civilian force that is present to fight when, for example, fighters are needed in an area immediately and no soldiers are within such a distance, but work as normal civilians during normal times.  This actually ties in somewhat with the emergency draft.
ok thanks for clarification... updating now...
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