Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Lav]

Motion

As a further step to improving fortress security, I suggest building ballista towers which will flank our fortress perimeter, approximately along the following lines:

           #~
           #~
           #~
 (fort)    #~
           #~~~~~~
           #~~~~~~
           #~~~~~~
############~~~~~~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        ~~~~~##=##
        ~~~~~#O\O#
        ~~~~~=<-)###
        ~~~~~#O/O  #
        ~~~~~### > #
               #   #
               #####

Legend:
# - wall.
= - fortifications.
~ - water.
> - staircase down for access and ammo storage.
Everything else - ballista.

A total of four ballista towers at every corner.

[Org]

Not sure. I say we should build the bigger wall first, because if there are bow gobbos, they can stand on the hill and fire down.

[Goron]

Goron, may I interpret "your" system (sorry for this labelling, but I mean the way you are currently doing it, I think it is sensible) as being split into three 24-hour periods:

0 hours: motions may now be made and seconded
24 hours: no more motions may be made
48 hours: no more motions may be seconded, voting opens
72 hours: voting closes

As above?

It would be appropriate to 'interpret' it as such... but let me give the reality of it, as it has played out:

0 hours: motions may now officially be made and seconded
24 hours: no more motions may be made period
48 hours: motions without seconds are removed from the books, voting officially opens
72 hours: voting closes period

Notice how when motions opened, my list was already populated? That's because I do not ignore motions offered prior to the official time. I just wait to record them, that way, the mover would have an opportunity to modify, or pull a motion if it all of a sudden becomes inappropriate based on the Director's reports, or some other context.

Also I also posted, and quoted myself above:

Once the time to vote rolls along, I will do my best to look through these 'vote' posts to try and tally your votes-

Which means these early votes are not being ignored, just like the early motions were not ignored. They are just not being officially recorded until they are officially relevant.

[Lav]

I'd suggest to extend the motioning period for another 24 hours. Otherwise just a single day absence from the forum for whatever RL reasons may cost a player his ability to present his ideas to the community.

Thus:

T+00 .. T+24: new motions can be made and seconded.
T+24 .. T+48: motions can be made, seconded and voted on.
T+48 .. T+72: only voting is allowed.

[Goron]

I'd suggest to extend the motioning period for another 24 hours. Otherwise just a single day absence from the forum for whatever RL reasons may cost a player his ability to present his ideas to the community.

Thus:

T+00 .. T+24: new motions can be made and seconded.
T+24 .. T+48: motions can be made, seconded and voted on.
T+48 .. T+72: only voting is allowed.

I understand the concern, but what that also does, is makes it more possible to 'sneak' motions in and pass on only two votes more easily. It decreases the time to vote on a motion to a possible minimum of 24 hours, rather than 48.
I'd rather see people miss the opportunity to make motions due to missing the time frame (especially since, at least I, still listed motions made long before the motion period came along... during Org's go... which means the time for motions is essentially the 'official' 24 PLUS all the time before that...They just went unofficially recorded until the official time) rather than see people miss the opportunity to vote on a motion...

your method would hard cap the minimum time to vote on a motion at 24 hours- while leaving no hard cap on the time to offer motions. I'd rather see the hard cap minimum time to vote at 48 hours, like my listing offers, while cutting the time to accept motions back 24 hours.

Take this scenario:
under your suggested way, I could wait until T+47.9 and make a motion to build Goron and Lav a palace. Lav seconds it immediately. That leave only 24 hours for people to 'catch' us and vote against.

Under my method, the latest I could offer the motion is T+23.9, that would leave 48 hours for people to 'catch' us and vote against.

And under both methods I would still be able to offer motions before T+0. so that time would not be max capped at 24 hours in my method.

[Emmanovi]

Yes, of course. It slipped my mind to mention motions made before the unofficial start.

This system seems quite logical and thought-out, but it is limited in some ways by only having 24 hours available for voting. Anyone missing those 24 hours is likely to have their say uncounted - although you have stated you will attempt to count votes made before, this undermines the system to a degree.

Don't get me wrong, I think this will work, but like all systems there may be problems.

[Goron]

Motion

As a further step to improving fortress security, I suggest building ballista towers which will flank our fortress perimeter, approximately along the following lines:
[...snip...]

I like this... but I think it may be too early. We have yet to see goblins or kobolds, I think our current defenses should hold decently well for the time being. I think we should focus on our other projects and work, before designating time and resources towards this construction. We have no trained siege-dwarves, we have no trained military at all at that! I think we should start soliciting people to vulunteer for the armed services before we start building too many more fortifications that will ultimately stand undwarfed.

[Emmanovi]

... we have no trained military at all at that! I think we should start soliciting people to vulunteer for the armed services before we start building too many more fortifications that will ultimately stand undwarfed.

As previously stated, I am happy to volunteer towards fortress defence. At my last check, I was a proficient marksdwarf, but if the community would prefer that I practiced some other military skills I am perfectly happy to do my bit for the protection and security of Equalvoice.

[Goron]

maybe once the voting about voluntary/mandatory training/service finishes, I/someone can compile a list stating which dwarves are opting in for training/service and which are not or, if the votes go generally the other way, which dwarves are up for training/service and which are not and what order the rotation will be... or whatever.

We could possibly use the list of dwarves I posted a bit back, and flag them based on opt in/opt out and such.

[Lav]

I understand the concern, but what that also does, is makes it more possible to 'sneak' motions in and pass on only two votes more easily. It decreases the time to vote on a motion to a possible minimum of 24 hours, rather than 48.

Understood. In this case, perhaps the motions suggested in the second 24-hour period should be not only seconded but also thirded?

And anyway, usually there will be some extra time between the end of voting period and actual beginning of the turn by the director. This time may be used to voting as well (dwarves cannot change their votes if they already voted, but they can vote on issues they didn't vote during the official period).

[Hilscher]

I'm starting to get disillusioned. I'm not even going to bother to object to the revisioning of the voting system. You're opening it up to all kinds of abuses and flaws, but whatever. It really, truly doesn't make any difference to lay out logic and reason because no one bothers taking it in anyway. This is why political parties form, because they're not going to listen to reason, just pandering. Petty, empty alliances of friends will form to vote the same way regardless of reason. Better to be a free thinking loose cannon aimed at everyone. In theory anyway. Force shits on reason in the end, so in the grand scheme of things I guess it's better to be a flunkie tool.

Right now I don't even know what motions are up and being voted on. I was hoping the precedent Emmanovi and I started would hold, but I guess not. This equates to confusing ballots driving voter participation down. Apathy, yay. I think it's time for Grail to go off and create Protester's Redoubt to the north. Let me know when you have a charter.

[Goron]

I'm starting to get disillusioned. I'm not even going to bother to object to the revisioning of the voting system. You're opening it up to all kinds of abuses and flaws, but whatever. It really, truly doesn't make any difference to lay out logic and reason because no one bothers taking it in anyway. This is why political parties form, because they're not going to listen to reason, just pandering. Petty, empty alliances of friends will form to vote the same way regardless of reason. Better to be a free thinking loose cannon aimed at everyone. In theory anyway. Force shits on reason in the end, so in the grand scheme of things I guess it's better to be a flunkie tool.

Right now I don't even know what motions are up and being voted on. I was hoping the precedent Emmanovi and I started would hold, but I guess not. This equates to confusing ballots driving voter participation down. Apathy, yay. I think it's time for Grail to go off and create Protester's Redoubt to the north. Let me know when you have a charter.

Are you Fucking kidding me?
How is it open to abuse and flaws? Please explain? Your last post only criticized and never presented any suggestions or solutions, don't claim no one takes in logic and reason when you never presented any in the first place.

All I have gathered from your performance in this thread is that you are whiny little bitch. Every time something goes against your opinion you have gotten all bitchy and complained and accused people of shit. Why don't you fucking grow up.

Maybe you are just too fucking stupid to understand whats going on, because if you can't figure out what motions are being voted on from this list, it just goes to show you are too fucking stupid to comprehend 'logic and reason' in the first place.

[Goron]

Heres my motion: Kick the fucktard Hilscher out of this game, or I quit.
you guys choose.
I am not going to put myself through the stress of having a god damn fucking moron do his best to fuck everything up.

[Org]

Everyone in favor?

Aye from me

Sorry Hilscher, but not really.

[Hilscher]

Nice try Goron. I've been presenting reason all this time, and now I've given up. Good luck trying to exile me, though. The tool of secession is vital to a working democracy, and one I am excercising. Don't like it? Too bad. It's one you're using too, Alanis. "Kick him or I quit."

I'm not going to move to kick you, Goron, despite what a lemming you are; but I am going to move to kick Org. He barely shows up to participate in this democracy, did a bad job on his turn taking an inconsiderate amount of time, and doesn't even consider what he votes on, if he votes at all. His "aye to all except X" demonstrate a clear lack of forethought or due consideration in the voting process, and a work ethic that passes on his lazy half-assed effort onto others who then have to go back and do twice the work themselves, finding out what "everything except X" was. There's good grounds to remove him from this game.

EDIT: Here are Grail's plans for Secession's Redoubt, which she will create and live in alone until a Charter is passed and ratified by the community. It will be dug a bit to the north and east, in the soil biome.