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[grendel]

Various metals and metal oxides can be added to glass during the manufacturing process to alter its color. Relevant examples among these are:

Iron (II) oxide: Gives glass a blue-green color.
Copper: Produces an opaque dark red glass.
Gold: Produces glass with a ruby-red color.
Tin: Produces an opaque white glass.
Silver: Glass made with silver compounds can range from yellow to orange.

As a somewhat OCD Dwarf Fortress player, I think it would be neat to have a wider range of colors for glass materials so that I could color code my city.  

[Arawak]

Its a good idea but I think you got ALL the colors in the wrong material.

Iron oxide is rust rust is red = red glass.
I cant even see the others mixing with glass unless powdered.
opaque:just dont cook the coke from the plant in all the way.

other:I think metals wont generally work but these are dwarves so they might find a way.

A better use for tin is the modern way they make glass.
gonna be too long of a post  

would hijack yours too so ima make a topic

[Gakidou]

From http://chemistry.about.com/cs/inorganic/a/aa032503a.htm:

Glass Pigments
Compounds   Colors
iron oxides    greens, browns
manganese oxides    deep amber, amethyst, decolorizer
cobalt oxide    deep blue
gold chloride    ruby red
selenium compounds    reds
carbon oxides    amber/brown
mix of mangnese, cobalt, iron    black
antimony oxides    white
uranium oxides    yellow green (glows!)
sulfur compounds    amber/brown
copper compounds    light blue, red
tin compounds    white
lead with antimony    yellow

---

By the way, just because rust is red doesn't mean that iron will be. While Limonite produces red streaks looking like rust, Hemetite produces brown streaks, and Magnetite produces black streaks. So it certainly is concieveable that iron, when mixed with glass, does not appear in an obvious iron color.

[Arawak]

Well..Being ocd I would assume that you were knowlegable enough to know that iron and glass dont have the same melting point or ingredients.

sure you could make glass previously to get that down, but then you would have to melt it again and somhow get the right amount of iron in the glass to actually MAKE the color its not the material its MIXING them thats the problem otherwise sure id say the actual color.

Thats why I only see the raw color tin could very well work but the rest are out of the semi medival knowlege of the world.

Not all of the rest some others would work but I would have to think of A way for the dwarves to mix it properly, Besides it would only be worth more if its intended color such as all blue or in a pretty pattern such as partial stripes of the same color type.

such as red/amber/oarnge or blue/purple/green
and opposites such as blue/red
mixes such as red/green would be worth less

still its a nice idea.

[ October 21, 2006: Message edited by: Arawak ]

[grendel]

quote:Originally posted by Arawak:
<STRONG>Its a good idea but I think you got ALL the colors in the wrong material.
</STRONG>

You think wrong. Iron oxide is red, but glass made with iron oxide impurities is not.  

[Arawak]

I respect you held back from calling me stupid,
I already know that it would generally be green  
im trying to say the dwarfs with their majestic dds are so retarded that they belive in the miasa theory and are probably retarded to the point in general that they would not properly add the impurities the majority of the time and make an array of colors not generally seen.

A reasearch system might help and an education system such as apprentenceships

[Woodstock]

Yeah, but imagine a dwarf getting a fey mood and asking for the most specific of colors... Requiring you to have them ALL stockpiled.

[Solara]

quote:Originally posted by Arawak:
<STRONG>
Thats why I only see the raw color tin could very well work but the rest are out of the semi medival knowlege of the world.</STRONG>

Why does everyone always assume that a fantasy universe = real life medieval period in Europe? (And also that medieval = stupid?)

People from ancient times were way more advanced than we give them credit for. The Greeks came up with atomic theory, the ancient Persians (or possibly even Sumerians) invented batteries, etc. Or take the more common examples, gunpowder and the pyramids. And all of this was way, way before medieval times anyway.

As for as what can and can't be done in game, please remember that these are dwarves. They very likely know everything about stonecrafting, metal smithing, and the properties of various metals.

[ October 22, 2006: Message edited by: Solara ]

[ October 22, 2006: Message edited by: Solara ]

[Mechanoid]

quote:Originally posted by Arawak:
Its a good idea but I think you got ALL the colors in the wrong material.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass

"Iron(II) oxide results in bluish-green glass, frequently used for beer bottles. Together with chromium it gives a richer green color, used for wine bottles.
...
Pure metallic copper produces a very dark red, opaque glass, which is sometimes used as a substitute for gold in the production of ruby-colored glass."

Dont forget it's stated by traders that the craftsmanship of the dwarves is legendary... It'd only make sense that they could have technology and knowledge that surpasses many other species.

[Arawak]

Mechaniod I alrady know that READ darnit Each and every one of you have automaticly assumed
That I dont when I have previously stated that I do.

"Dont forget it's stated by traders that the craftsmanship of the dwarves is legendary... It'd only make sense that they could have technology and knowledge that surpasses many other species."

NO You must realise that the only things Inside mountains are stone and a select FEW ores
Of course they would be legendary for stone crafts and weapons/armor ITS ALL THEY HAVE TO WORK WITH!!!

Sure you might count wood but you directly stated traders Do Dwarves Sell their beds? no..What could fit?

Also generally speaking rivers are on top or to the side of mountains,why? beacause they are caused by erosion and need a source of more water,where do they flow? to the sea but you knew that.
But ooh where does the gravel they create go?
The sea.
where can you find sand generally speaking? the ocean.
ooh gee whilickers who will get us this sand?

The humans,ooh the humans with TONS of different things to make stuff with.
the universal jack of all trades..
who are generally like the jack of all trades
can do it all but excel at none ooooh!

Now even if you are semi intelligent you know where this is going and can imagine why dwarves excel at what they have and humans dont.

Now the cave river and magma flow are the most unrealistic part of the game but so much a part of it..
To the point where you start coloring things you shouldnt have in the first place..

I originally was only trying to say that dwarves would not generally know how to work with a forign item and would screw it up

Why? because they shouldnt know how it was made in the first place.

Having somone think I was dumb(in my view) and state the opposite I was trying to say to prove wrong what they thought I thought,

Twice triggered this little outburst brought to you by Arawak. Have a day :

Edit: salara the entire span of the middle ages did not have greek philosophy AND
running water, water is the main one.
if you knew a bit (small very tiny)more you would know medival europe was a bunch of idiots doing things because they belived in it.
(not a punch at god, aimed at the idiots that say hell exists to get people to kill other people who think they wont go there for murder..Also it states in the bible that hell doesnt exist forget where but it does..it instead says that you dont exist till the universe is a new eden..lotta work for us there)

Also I said semi medival, I dont think there stupid well yes   , but if you think about it were less than 0.0000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000001% smarter. give or take a few zeros..
theres just too much to know..

also if you think about it we know different things compared to where we are which you can only emulate because the majority of humans still cant think in somone elses view.

darn now im calm and have a writers block...

Anyway I think tarn adams will make this game
better by making some dwarf fortresses on cliff faces by the sea so we would rightfully make sand...err glass. eventually.

[ October 23, 2006: Message edited by: Arawak ]

[Mechanoid]

:roll:

Could they get the materials? Obviously yes.

Now, the only thing that's left is wether ot not they can actually use what they have. If it's going to be a pissing match on wether or not the dwarves are technically sufficent enough to produce the items, then i say that they likely are. They have glass, and have developed their technology to a point over such a time to be able to remove the impurities from the glass and create clear glass. They have also been able to use and melt gem stones, and create crystal glass from them. Their technology and knowledge seems advanced enough to do what's suggested -- to reintroduce specific metalic impurities to color the glass. Which is, basically, re-coloring clear glass.

When the king asks for something new, you'd better believe they'd start thinking in all sorts of CRAZY directions. (otherwise their heads will be moving in all sorts of crazy directions)

Also, by the logic of "It isn't in their area so they dont have the expertise" then humans would be almost completely ignorant of how to deal with the crafting of rare stone and gems, since their abundance is limited or simply non-existant on or in hills and open field areas. Elves would be total masters of wood and naturally-obtained objects and totally disallow the use of many manufactured objects -- like metals. Conversely, because there's such little wood in the moutains Dwarves could be building their beds with three legs instead of four.

Of course, i dont buy into that theory.
Got the materials and time? You're going to be a master of that material after your species experiments and uses it for a few hundred years, irregardless of what it is, be it wood, metal, or - in this case - (coloring) glass. I'm quite sure that if Elven society allowed it, they'd be as much a master of metal as the Dwarves are (even though elves use metal for weaponry, they dont use it for armor)

[ October 23, 2006: Message edited by: Mechanoid ]

[Arawak]

Actually I assumed they would trade for some anyway and I completeley agree with you except for the last part and thats what immigrants are for..

Edit: they can do it sure but it wont be perfect to a point that it has different variation on the same color...like blue/purple and green/brown

[ October 23, 2006: Message edited by: Arawak ]

Edit2:just too much that my brain is thinking of right now.

Humans/elves/dwarves wouldnt be stupid about stones and simple things would be imported to a point of partial efficiency.

also "It isn't in their area so they dont have the expertise"
Is just stupid, sorry but it was more of to a point that you would be BETTER with things you grew up with and have worked with before..

a good example would be the starting seven they assume the skills that they grew up with and would be picked from the general population according to the type of knowlege of that topic..

anyway i really dont care anymore because half of you twisted my words into somthing that they understood instead of listening..

which only proves that mans capacity to belive what he prefers to be true is unsurpassed.

[ October 23, 2006: Message edited by: Arawak ]

[puke]

quote:Originally posted by Arawak:
<STRONG>im trying to say the dwarfs with their majestic dds are so retarded that they belive in the miasa theory</STRONG>

i dont mean to be a dick, but miasma is one of the more logical theories to come out of the dark ages.  rotting things do spread disease.  rotting things do spread bad smells.  its not a far jump to suggest that bad smells from rotting things spread disease, and while correlation may not always be causation, in this case its certainly close enough for government work.

anyway, DF has a very realistic method for making steel.  Why not follow a realistic method for making stained glass.

[Draxxalon]

Regardless of Dwarves being in regular contact with sand, or rivers, their mastering of glass still makes sense.

Glass can made without sand.   Sand is just the easiest way to do it (which is why we do it that way).  

Glass is made from silica.  Sand is just the silica that remains when rocks erode.

The most common source that dwarves would likely find silica without using sand, is Quartz.

Quartz is one of the most common minerals in rocks (which is why its found as sand after the rocks are eroded).   It's commonly found in many igneous, sedimentary, and metamorphic rocks.  To name a few of the rocks which we commonly see in DF: granite, slate, pumice, rhyolite, sandstone (dwarves could easily turn this into sand too), gneiss (dependant on what the gneiss was originally), onyx  and limestone, and of course, as raw quartz.

And, even without that source of silica, Obsidian is glass.   It's natural glass.   Dwarves find obsidian (and use it) all the time.   It's not a difficult leap of faith to assume that they would learn how to make the stuff after being around magma (if you can make the leap of faith required to assume that dwarves work with magma, this should be an easy leap).  In fact, being around magma, it was probably easier for them to learn how to make glass than it was for us humans.

The coloring of glass would be a natural step after they learned how to make glass.   Red glass (tinted by gold) would be an easy thing to learn by accident for them.   Gold veins are found in quartz-rich minerals (lode veins are often found in pure quartz, infused veins are often found in granite).   Dwarf melts some quartz down that was originally holding some gold, makes glass, and lo and behold, it's red.  

Silver, Tin and Copper is also found in quartz-rich granite, and would likewise result in easy, accidental colored glass discoveries for dwarves (and probably are how humans discovered them, as my own personal speculation)

(Hey, what do you know, some of that time I wasted in university taking Geology classes / listening to my grandfather (geologist/geology professor) paid off... discussing a game!)

(Wikipedia helped a bit too, to clarify the stuff I forgot)

Back to the original post - the (pre) medevial methods to make stained glassused the exact minerals to produce the exact colors in said post.

It's by no means a far-fetched idea for dwarves to know how to make these aditional colors.

(Personally, I'm not sure if we need all the colors, since it might be difficult to discern them all ("clear glass" is blue in-game)... but could be cool anyhow, and extra depth is certainly not a foreign concept to DF!)

[Seryntas]

Am I the only one who can easily see this game becoming so deep and complex that you'll need to bring friends over to help you play?  "You search for metal ores, I'll micromanage the creation of new colors of glass."

Also: I feel really bad about the people who try to learn this game after all these extra levels of complexity are implemented.