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[MrWiggles]

And you should believe in the least wrong thing as possible.

[inaluct]

When you get right down to it, what exactly is the difference between Catholicism and protestantism aside from the church's hierarchy?

The major differences are:
- The Roman Catholic Church has a Pope and that Pope claims Papal infallibility ie., that the Pope is sometimes given infalliable Divine revelations which should not be questioned by any Christian. Protestantism rejects this claim.

Hierarchy.  And most of those other differences are small, at best.  Lack of free will seems to be rare.

I once had to right a hypothetical conversation between multiple religious leaders from the time of the reformation.  The setting; before the gates of heaven.  In mine, they bickered about who was right, because obviously the others weren't of the right religion to get into heaven, and then Saint Peter comes up and says "Buddha will see you now."  The point was that despite those tiny differences, they all still got there.  The fact that it was Buddha is irrelevant; it just needed to be a non-christian figure.

Not to nitpick, but if you think Buddha would ever be greeting people up in Heaven... well, that's not how Buddha works. He isn't really intended to be a divine figure, or even anything more than anyone else, really.

Well, you are nitpicking.  As I said, the point wasn't that it was Buddha.  Any none-christian thing would have fit.  The point was that they all bickered about how one or the other was right, without anything more than their own words, and in the end it turns out that none of them were right.  Ironically, those religious figures, in this discussion, represent those that are trying to argue that atheism is either right or wrong.  It doesn't matter if you have a religion or not, what you believe could be wrong.

LegoLord, you are so totally wrong that I don't even know where to begin.

So I won't.

But seriously; go read about Buddhism. You clearly know almost absolutely nothing about it.

[Yanlin]

Ugh. Another thread derailed into senselessness.

I present to you: Burden of proof!

The burden of proof is on the one making a contradictory claim. Atheism is default. Religion makes a contradictory claim. Since Atheism has science on its side... (Occam's razor, rational thought, logic, philosophy, that kind of stuff.)

[andrea]

first of all, STOP. USING. OCCAM'S RAZOR!


it just don't work, because what is the simplest thing can change from person to person. for you and many other, it works against religion. for a lot of other people, it works against atheism.
it can be used both ways, really.


about buddha... i think that is nitpicking. that was an hypotetical conversation at the gates of heaven, it doesn't have to be realistic. he could have said about anything, and still i wouldn't think that would be wrong.

[MrWiggles]

first of all, STOP. USING. OCCAM'S RAZOR!

it just don't work, because what is the simplest thing can change from person to person. for you and many other, it works against religion. for a lot of other people, it works against atheism.
it can be used both ways, really.

Occam Razor does to work. Its valid tool.

It can't really be applied to atheism, as atheism isn't a claim. It the default position of the god claim.

Occam Razor can be used to decided which answer should be preferred. (of course until further evidence says otherwise)

Its not an end all. It not meant to be an end all. It meant to help focus one efforts. To cut away the unnecessary fat.

Shits and grin, it would be neat to see Occam Razor turned toward atheism, even though it would be misappropriate application. I would try, but I can't think of a way of wording it, where it wouldn't be a verbose argument ad ignorance.

[Rilder]

And you should believe in the least wrong thing as possible.

Why not just believe in whatever you personally accept and find most comfort in?

[MrWiggles]

And you should believe in the least wrong thing as possible.

Why not just believe in whatever you personally accept and find most comfort in?

Reality isn't a make believe thing.

By not critical thinking about what you believe, it allows for at best waste of time to steal the time and money of the unwary. At worse causes serve detriment to life.

Scams, psedo science all require the disengagement of crit. thinking. By allowing one belief of little to no evidence allows for other to be accept. Allowing for the nefarious to tell you your child is murdered when he still being held captive. By taking snake oil disguised as medicine. By believer there a nigerian nobel who needs some start up money to escape.

And a sound mind does not just believe in something in spite of evidence. Believing in something that is contradicted by reality, is generally called a delusion.

And the world is growing more and more complicated as the generation goes by. With more information being presented to us at a faster rate then ever before, we need the tools and fortitude to decipher the crap from what will work.

Simply going with what feels good, or sounds right is lazy, and fool hardy.

Let alone that if we wish to be competitive country when it comes to technology and science, we need to foster an environment where the rigor of science are expected.

Though science is not perfect, it has proven it is a fine method for determining what works.

[Rilder]

So your basically saying that anybody who isn't an Atheist or whatever you are is Delusional, lazy and basically a heathen? 

[andrea]

and unable to do science it seem.


oh, that is what i meant: stop using occam's razor for atheism. for other things, then it can work.

[LegoLord]

Reality isn't a make believe thing.

By not critical thinking about what you believe, it allows for at best waste of time to steal the time and money of the unwary. At worse causes serve detriment to life.

Do you have no idea what you just said?  You pretty much just said "Atheists are right, you are stupid for not being atheist."  No, those weren't your words, but that is what they come off as.  If you were at all capable of critical thinking, you would realize the contradiction in your argument.

Inaluct, I already said it being Buddha wasn't the point.  Who it was didn't matter, as long as it was a non-christian.  It was a hypothetical conversation meant to point out the absurdities of any religious debate.

[Yanlin]

Sigh...

Occam's razor is a valid tool. It points towards atheism. Since I use rational thinking, I must therefor devote some thought into this matter. Atheism shows me far more proof than normal religions.

It's not a matter of who has the correct statement but who is better for the world.

I'd rather an alturistic atheist to be my doctor than a religious prick who only does this because he's afraid of hell.

To quote (What I think was said by) Aristotle: "I have gained this from philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law."

I think it applies here.

Reality isn't a make believe thing.

By not critical thinking about what you believe, it allows for at best waste of time to steal the time and money of the unwary. At worse causes serve detriment to life.

Do you have no idea what you just said?  You pretty much just said "Atheists are right, you are stupid for not being atheist."  No, those weren't your words, but that is what they come off as.  If you were at all capable of critical thinking, you would realize the contradiction in your argument.

Stop taking things out of context. Atheism is one of the only religions that don't ask you to pray or donate money.

[LegoLord]

Without a church, is a religion asking you to donate money?  No.  The bible does not say "cough your dough up to the church."  The church says that.  And frankly, priests need paying.

The real point of those morning preachings is so that people already interested in switching can find a place to go learn about what there is to switch to, or that people who have already decided can learn more.  And at the church I used to go to, at least, it was not all "Wrath of God, Penance and Piousness."  The person giving the sermon would often tell stories of people doing good deeds for one another, not even talking about the religion itself; he would spend quite a large part of the sermon doing so.

[Yanlin]

*cough*

The bible isn't the word of god. Let's get that out of the way. Just because it says it in the bible (Or doesn't.) doesn't make it correct. (Or incorrect.)

I'd believe you on the point of "For people who already want to switch" if it weren't for all these fucking preachers going around saying I'm gonna go to hell if I don't start overdressing and praying.

[Gorjo MacGrymm]

I'd believe you on the point of "For people who already want to switch" if it weren't for all these fucking preachers going around saying I'm gonna go to hell if I don't start overdressing and praying.

I have never met a preacher who said that to anyone.  Thats sounds DISTINCTLY like a generalization from someone who has a personal grudge against Christianity, not someone who disagrees with belief in a god.

People here are starting to OVERUSE Occams Razor and turn it into a crutch.

Just to throw this out there, here are two other ideas for GOD.

Good Orderly Direction
Group of Drunks (for those who have gone through AA's 12 steps)

I am not an agnostic.  I am a Christian, with some Baha'i-ist ideas, although I am not a believer in Baha-ullah (sp?).  I KNOW there are inaccuracies in the bible, and different faiths have different books in their bibles for goodness sakes.  I believe God is trying to reach each and everyone of us in different ways, but we are not listening.  I believe that we existed before we were born and will exists after we die.  I think the physical universe is basicly "school" for us to learn about ourselves and God.

I see 3 kinds of fear listed here:
1.  Fear of going to a "hell" (the religous - yes, broad based definition here)
2.  Fear of believing in a god and wasting a life when there is no god (realists)
3.  Fear of stating an opinion because a person is afraid of someones reaction (agnostics)

funny thing, in the New Testament, Jesus mention he prefers numbers 1 and 2 over number 3.

my two cents.






this post probably didnt help at all.

[Yanlin]

I'd believe you on the point of "For people who already want to switch" if it weren't for all these fucking preachers going around saying I'm gonna go to hell if I don't start overdressing and praying.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I have never met a preacher who said that to anyone.  Thats sounds DISTINCTLY like a generalization from someone who has a personal grudge against Christianity, not someone who disagrees with belief in a god.

People here are starting to OVERUSE Occams Razor and turn it into a crutch.

Just to throw this out there, here are two other ideas for GOD.

Good Orderly Direction
Group of Drunks (for those who have gone through AA's 12 steps)

I am not an agnostic.  I am a Christian, with some Baha'i-ist ideas, although I am not a believer in Baha-ullah (sp?).  I KNOW there are inaccuracies in the bible, and different faiths have different books in their bibles for goodness sakes.  I believe God is trying to reach each and everyone of us in different ways, but we are not listening.  I believe that we existed before we were born and will exists after we die.  I think the physical universe is basicly "school" for us to learn about ourselves and God.

I see 3 kinds of fear listed here:
1.  Fear of going to a "hell" (the religous - yes, broad based definition here)
2.  Fear of believing in a god and wasting a life when there is no god (realists)
3.  Fear of stating an opinion because a person is afraid of someones reaction (agnostics)

funny thing, in the New Testament, Jesus mention he prefers numbers 1 and 2 over number 3.

my two cents.






this post probably didnt help at all.

You obviously did not meet the kind of people I face daily. The people who literally preach it in your face. Seriously. Take an ordinary Christian, tell him you're an Atheist, what will his reaction be? If he's respecting that, he's not really a "Christian". He's just a conformist.

The people I meet, they PREACH it. The only ones I've been able to stop from preaching are the ones with a brain. I've made them think rationally. They don't bother me anymore.

Basically, Atheist crime squad! We need a slogan!

About Occam's razor, it is not overused. It is underused. It will continue being used until religious people realize it's a real tool of real science to focus real efforts. Believe it or not, there is research being done towards discovering god. Occam's razor is helping it.