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[PTTG??]

Hmm... I'm ok with implied stairs.
As long as I can still treat them as ladders.

[alfie275]

I don't see anything wrong with what we have now, 'm ok with this if the old system stays aswell.

[Silverionmox]

I don't see anything wrong with what we have now, 'm ok with this if the old system stays aswell.

What can you do with the old system that you can't do with the new one?

[alfie275]

Dig down, constructions must be started from the bottom and he said it was a multi z level construction.

[Silverionmox]

Dig down, constructions must be started from the bottom and he said it was a multi z level construction.

Not at all. Since carving the staircase includes removing the floor just above the staircase, to make it functional, it would be possible to start carving from the top as well.

In contrast to the current system (designate an up stair ánd a down stair to make a single staircase; it allows single down or up stairs to be dug, even though those will not allow down or up movement on their own), it would only require one designation, on the level where you want the actual construction to be (the construction which will allow the dwarves to reach the ceiling of that level, and the removal of the ceiling to allow acces to the floor above).

[Draco18s]

Ramps will not let you dig up.

Why?

Because the upper tile of the ramp does not actually exist, there must be a floor adjacent to the ramp (in a walkable direction) in order for the ramp to be usable.

You can dig upwards with ramps (i.e. you can go up Z-levels with them) - you might mean you can't go straight up, but that's not the same thing.

_floor #wall ^up ramp

Code: [Select]

# #
_^#

Dwarves _can_ stand on the ramp and dig out [either for a tunnel or another ramp up another level) the wall on the upper right in the diagram. I have tested this.

Read the wiki.  If the wiki is wrong, change it.

A ramp is a map feature that allows dwarves and caravans to move between levels. Unlike a stair ramps have no 'top', they only have a bottom.

The tile above a ramp must be open space for it to operate (it will appear on screen as a down triangle).

[PTTG??]

Dwarves can only stand on the "Up Ramp" square of a ramp, not the "Down Ramp" square.
Digging a ramp automatically makes the tile above clear and creates the Down Ramp.
Dwarves can walk to or dig in any tile above and adjacent to a ramp, so long as there is a wall below that tile.

This was a recent fix from earlier versions.

[Random832]

Ramps will not let you dig up.

Why?

Because the upper tile of the ramp does not actually exist, there must be a floor adjacent to the ramp (in a walkable direction) in order for the ramp to be usable.

You can dig upwards with ramps (i.e. you can go up Z-levels with them) - you might mean you can't go straight up, but that's not the same thing.

_floor #wall ^up ramp

Code: [Select]

# #
_^#

Dwarves _can_ stand on the ramp and dig out [either for a tunnel or another ramp up another level) the wall on the upper right in the diagram. I have tested this.

Read the wiki.  If the wiki is wrong, change it.

I did. Way back when I first discovered it:

        * Note: It can be used to reach the tiles to the northwest or northeast of the ramp (not shown in picture). Also, if the tile to the west had a natural rock wall on top of it, it can be mined from the ramp.v0.28.181.40d

Which part of the wiki says what you said?

The tile above a ramp must be open space for it to operate (it will appear on screen as a down triangle).

Is this what you were talking about? This is talking about the space directly above the ramp (not the one above and to one side), which is automatically dug out when you dig a ramp from the side. (and I could have sworn either that page or the digging page mentioned that at one point)

[Draco18s]

This was a recent fix from earlier versions.

Must have been one I missed.

Not that I ever used ramps anyway.

[PTTG??]

I love ramps. I use them everywhere. I feel they give structure; I just can't visualize what "stairs" could look like and still function, other than ladders. It seems odd to me that a most dwarven holds seem to have giant chutes full of ladders in the middle of the plains as their entrance.

[Draco18s]

I agree that stairs are a bit of an oddball in that regard, but (at least in adventure mode) are far easier to use.  God I hate dwarven halls and their 6 wide ramps--doesn't matter which way they face, you have to walk around the wall (or the pit).

[Sunken]

This all ties in with something discussed in another thread. There I said:
http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=34969.msg539462#msg539462

Basically, if the world is seen as divided into finite cubes of stone or free space, in layers separated by a "thin" floor/ceiling that may also be independently stone or free space, then what is being suggested here is to make all stairs fill the "cube" portion from top to bottom (instead of as currently - arguably - being composed of a "top half" and a "bottom half"), plus removing the ceiling "plate" on top of the stair. I like this, it seems to be a more consistent representation.

I see a small side-effect that may need to be addressed though. If the ceiling above a newly-constructed staircase was automatically removed, that would require the involvement of both masons and miners in the construction (it's like digging a channel on the upper level). Preferrably, both steps could be done without two separate designations.
Also, if the ceiling is removed as part of the construction, that complicates current notions of support; the staircases would be standing on top of each other only, not on the floor of each level (and so might collapse where they currently don't) - also, no floor would mean things could not be lying "next to" the staircase on the same tile.

Perhaps it is better to see it not as *removing* the thin floor plate above the stair, but merely making a staircase hole (an altered type of floor tile), which would leave the floor to function as it does currently.

In fact, the above means that the current and the proposed systems wouldn't be too different; To carve a staircase down would involve two parts: dig the role in the floor, and carve the staircase (on the level below). Constructing a staircase upwards through a ceiling would entail constructing the steps and digging the hole (and digging out the cube above, if applicable). Presumably, the steps would need to be in place to make the hole from below.

The difference would be a more consistent representation and the ability of making stairs in a single step, as has been pointed out.

[Random832]

I see a small side-effect that may need to be addressed though. If the ceiling above a newly-constructed staircase was automatically removed, that would require the involvement of both masons and miners in the construction (it's like digging a channel on the upper level). Preferrably, both steps could be done without two separate designations.

You have tasks where you have both an architect and a mason or carpenter involved now.

Also, if the ceiling is removed as part of the construction, that complicates current notions of support; the staircases would be standing on top of each other only, not on the floor of each level (and so might collapse where they currently don't)

Constructed staircases can stand on top of each other now. The simplest way would be to have a "down staircase" as a 'virtual' thing somewhere between a down ramp and the floor on top of a constructed wall. It would support adjacent things on the upper level just like a wall can now.

also, no floor would mean things could not be lying "next to" the staircase on the same tile.

[Silverionmox]

An option is not to cut out the floor above a constructed staircase (i.e. there would be a staircase, but blocked by a floor. This would allow players to have stairs up that aren't connected yet (for purposes I can't fathom at this time, surprise sallies at sieges or something). A channel or deconstruct designation would then be needed to remove that floor. It ought to be possible to channel a floor from below then, though.

In any case, carving a stair should not imply carving out the whole square above it (one designation, one square). It should reveal the rock there however.

The down stair icon could even exist as it is now, except that it can't occur without a staircase on the lower level, the top of which you can see through the hole (where the floor used to be), and that will be displayed as what is now the down stair. The staircase proper can be displayed as a stair up on the level where it is (except when there is another staircase below it that allows to go down, the combination of a way up and a way down would still show as an X, as it does now).

A staircase should still allow horizontal movement through it, even if the stairs or rock or floor beneath it are deconstructed or collapsed; it will then be displayed as an ordinary staircase (the former stairs up).

[Drake1500]

It ought to be possible to channel a floor from below then, though.

Just to inform you, it is apparently possible to channel a floor out through the use of a up stair. Check this out:
http://www.dwarffortresswiki.net/index.php/Cave-in#causing_caveins_of_the_toplevel.2Fterrain_without_going_outside_.28attack_from_below.29
However, I do agree that you should be able to channel from below - WITHOUT the need of any stairs.

I think the best option to go with would be carving out a "up" staircase, with the "down" staircase on the floor above being implied. Note that this would leave the cube above intact (allowing for another staircase to be dug out above), since the "down" staircase would ONLY be part of the "floor" section.

Basically, what I'm saying is to have the "down" stair implied automatically when the staircase is dug out (just as the "floor" above a wall is implied automatically). No change would have to be made in how movement through these two objects is handled. Technically, there's still a "floor" on the level above; the "floor," however, is now the half of the staircase leading down.

I don't see a problem with this. The only problem with this system is the inability to use stairs to look down a level without cutting it out. But really, if something other than rock is down there, it's the same as if you'd channeled out the area. And if it's only rock, why wouldn't you channel it out? It's not like the rock is going to jump out and eat your dwarves or anything.