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Author Topic: Stairs  (Read 6294 times)

Draco18s

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Re: Stairs
« Reply #15 on: April 30, 2009, 03:29:42 pm »

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Drake1500

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Re: Stairs
« Reply #16 on: April 30, 2009, 05:11:11 pm »

Okay, I think some of us may be going a little hard on this suggestion. Truly, I believe it to be a good suggestion, and one that makes sense. After all, why would someone make a staircase that only goes halfway and doesn't end up anywhere? (Logically, I mean in the real world) Other than aesthetics (and even that is really iffy), there is absolutely no reason to make a half-way staircase.

Therefore, I fully support this suggestion, and the way that it has already been worded. He's right; why should there be so many designations in order to get a functioning staircase, when by precedent, there is construction that affects multiple z-levels (walls)?

My only concern with it right now, is how do you get an up/down staircase? It is impossible with the way that the suggestion functions right now, since the area above is automatically cleared. Therefore, you would have to build staircases atop of each other in order to get up/down stairs.

My suggestion is to maybe have to clear the area above yourself, that way you can designate another staircase above, and simply dig it out, resulting in an up/down staircase.

From what I know of programming (I have done some minor programming in my time), this should not be so difficult to implement. Everything is already there, it just needs to be... reworded, and modified.
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Time Kitten

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Re: Stairs
« Reply #17 on: April 30, 2009, 05:24:49 pm »

But I like my down staircases.  They are like grates... but less safe.
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Silverionmox

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Re: Stairs
« Reply #18 on: April 30, 2009, 06:10:51 pm »

Okay, I think some of us may be going a little hard on this suggestion. Truly, I believe it to be a good suggestion, and one that makes sense. After all, why would someone make a staircase that only goes halfway and doesn't end up anywhere? (Logically, I mean in the real world) Other than aesthetics (and even that is really iffy), there is absolutely no reason to make a half-way staircase.

Therefore, I fully support this suggestion, and the way that it has already been worded. He's right; why should there be so many designations in order to get a functioning staircase, when by precedent, there is construction that affects multiple z-levels (walls)?

My only concern with it right now, is how do you get an up/down staircase? It is impossible with the way that the suggestion functions right now, since the area above is automatically cleared. Therefore, you would have to build staircases atop of each other in order to get up/down stairs.

My suggestion is to maybe have to clear the area above yourself, that way you can designate another staircase above, and simply dig it out, resulting in an up/down staircase.

From what I know of programming (I have done some minor programming in my time), this should not be so difficult to implement. Everything is already there, it just needs to be... reworded, and modified.
When you carve a staircase on level 1, it stays on level 1, except for the removal of the floor above it on level 2. If the square there is not removed, removing the floor has no effect: solid rock stays solid rock (that you can designate as and carve into a staircase, which would then give acces to level 3). If it is simply dug out, a dwarf can stand there on level 2. If it is a floor, it will now show as a stairway leading down; if it is a staircase, it will now show as a staircase up and down on level 2, a staircase up on level 1 and a staircase down on level 3 as soon as you dig that square out, otherwise, it stays (visible, due to the floor removal) rock.
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Drake1500

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Re: Stairs
« Reply #19 on: April 30, 2009, 07:04:13 pm »

Okay, I think some of us may be going a little hard on this suggestion. Truly, I believe it to be a good suggestion, and one that makes sense. After all, why would someone make a staircase that only goes halfway and doesn't end up anywhere? (Logically, I mean in the real world) Other than aesthetics (and even that is really iffy), there is absolutely no reason to make a half-way staircase.

Therefore, I fully support this suggestion, and the way that it has already been worded. He's right; why should there be so many designations in order to get a functioning staircase, when by precedent, there is construction that affects multiple z-levels (walls)?

My only concern with it right now, is how do you get an up/down staircase? It is impossible with the way that the suggestion functions right now, since the area above is automatically cleared. Therefore, you would have to build staircases atop of each other in order to get up/down stairs.

My suggestion is to maybe have to clear the area above yourself, that way you can designate another staircase above, and simply dig it out, resulting in an up/down staircase.

From what I know of programming (I have done some minor programming in my time), this should not be so difficult to implement. Everything is already there, it just needs to be... reworded, and modified.
When you carve a staircase on level 1, it stays on level 1, except for the removal of the floor above it on level 2. If the square there is not removed, removing the floor has no effect: solid rock stays solid rock (that you can designate as and carve into a staircase, which would then give acces to level 3). If it is simply dug out, a dwarf can stand there on level 2. If it is a floor, it will now show as a stairway leading down; if it is a staircase, it will now show as a staircase up and down on level 2, a staircase up on level 1 and a staircase down on level 3 as soon as you dig that square out, otherwise, it stays (visible, due to the floor removal) rock.

Ah, I had misread what you said. I apologize for my error.

Well, with all of this, I don't see any problems with the new system proposed. And certainly, I have not seen anyone post any real problems with it. I'm all for this edit!  ;D
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Draco18s

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Re: Stairs
« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2009, 10:38:12 pm »

When you carve a staircase on level 1, it stays on level 1, except for the removal of the floor above it on level 2. If the square there is not removed, removing the floor has no effect: solid rock stays solid rock (that you can designate as and carve into a staircase, which would then give acces to level 3). If it is simply dug out, a dwarf can stand there on level 2.

Problem:
With the way the code currently works, this is how ramps work now.
However, you cannot dig upwards with ramps!
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Time Kitten

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Re: Stairs
« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2009, 11:09:28 pm »

When you carve a staircase on level 1, it stays on level 1, except for the removal of the floor above it on level 2. If the square there is not removed, removing the floor has no effect: solid rock stays solid rock (that you can designate as and carve into a staircase, which would then give acces to level 3). If it is simply dug out, a dwarf can stand there on level 2.

Problem:
With the way the code currently works, this is how ramps work now.
However, you cannot dig upwards with ramps!
I can't dig what now?

Dig up you fools, dig up!
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Draco18s

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Re: Stairs
« Reply #22 on: May 01, 2009, 12:25:13 am »

Ramps will not let you dig up.

Why?

Because the upper tile of the ramp does not actually exist, there must be a floor adjacent to the ramp (in a walkable direction) in order for the ramp to be usable.
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Jadael

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Re: Stairs
« Reply #23 on: May 01, 2009, 12:42:07 am »

Personally, I'd just remove 'Up/Down' stairs. Down stairs make sense to me, they replace the 'floor' of a tile. Up stairs make sense to me, they replace the 'wall' of a tile.

You'd need a 1x2 pattern of zigzagging stairs to make a 3+ level stairwell, but so what? It'd look nicer.
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Aquillion

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Re: Stairs
« Reply #24 on: May 01, 2009, 03:28:35 am »

First, I should say that I don't really see the issue here.  Staircases are built in multiple parts across multiple levels (and always will be), because the game needs to be able to give players a chance to see what they're digging into.  No suggestion can change that.

Every staircase currently in the game is easy for me to envision.  A few look odd or silly, but that's because they're only half-constructed.  I think, though, that the way it's set up now gives players important aspects of control over how their stairs are designed that all these suggestions would remove for no real benefit.

If you are suggesting that one construction / dig order appear on multiple floors at once...  that just seems like a bad idea to me.  It'd be more confusing than building it in parts, in the long run.  In fact, I'd say it's a terrible idea.

Constructions take up space; they prevent you from putting other things there.  The dwarves should never put a construction on a space where I didn't specifically order it.  Just because I build a staircase on one level and dig out above/below it doesn't meant that I want to waste space on another level with a staircase.  Sometimes I just want to link two floors without anything else.

Most importantly, though, I will often be just below the surface and will not want to break the surface.  The ability to order my dwarves to dig a purely 'down' staircase while expanding just below the surface is essential.  Automatically removing the ceiling (or pointlessly requiring that I dig, then construct) sound like terrible ideas to me when the current 'dig a downward-only staircase' works fine and makes perfect sense.

Sometimes I want to easily designate the digging of a staircase that will only go up, because (say) I'm digging a corridor that I want liquid to go through eventually.  The fact that there's an open area below shouldn't have any impact on that; if I want a staircase below, I will order a staircase below, and the game shouldn't try to be helpful by entering that order for me.

Other times I want to dig a staircase that will only go down (say, because there's nasty liquid above me, or the outside.)  If I wanted to remove the ceiling or to build a staircase on the floor above me, I'd have ordered that segment specifically.

Your suggestion, unless I'm missing something, would make both either very hard or impossible.  You're assuming that players will always want their staircases to connect to anything that they can connect to, and this is not a valid assumption.

Sometimes I use stairs for traffic control.  I might want to have an up-staircase leading further up, and below it, a down-staircase leading further down, without connecting the two.  Why are you insisting that I must connect the two?

Quote
Personally, I'd just remove 'Up/Down' stairs. Down stairs make sense to me, they replace the 'floor' of a tile. Up stairs make sense to me, they replace the 'wall' of a tile.

You'd need a 1x2 pattern of zigzagging stairs to make a 3+ level stairwell, but so what? It'd look nicer.
That's horrible.  This would pointlessly complicate construction by making it take twice as long to designate long up/down stairwells, and make it take twice as long for the dwarves to navigate any staircase longer than the (random and arbitrary) length of one layer.  It would take a useful function out of the game for absolutely no reason.

If you feel that big, unnecessarily-wide staircases look cool, go ahead and use them in your own fort.  Don't ask that everyone else have their fort crippled to your ascetic specifications.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2009, 03:39:35 am by Aquillion »
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Random832

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Re: Stairs
« Reply #25 on: May 01, 2009, 09:54:57 am »

Ramps will not let you dig up.

Why?

Because the upper tile of the ramp does not actually exist, there must be a floor adjacent to the ramp (in a walkable direction) in order for the ramp to be usable.

You can dig upwards with ramps (i.e. you can go up Z-levels with them) - you might mean you can't go straight up, but that's not the same thing.

_floor #wall ^up ramp
Code: [Select]
# #
_^#

Dwarves _can_ stand on the ramp and dig out [either for a tunnel or another ramp up another level) the wall on the upper right in the diagram. I have tested this. Anything on the upper level below which there's a wall on the lower level adjacent to the ramp can be accessed (i.e. can be walked to if it's a floor, can be dug out if it's a wall). You've seriously never done that?

I dig tunnels under rivers like this [with no access from above on the far side]
_floor #wall ^up ramp ~water
Code: [Select]
#^ #~~~~# ^#
##^ #### ^##
###^____^###
all the time. (I go the extra level down so I don't get damp stone warnings)
« Last Edit: May 01, 2009, 09:59:36 am by Random832 »
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Random832

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Re: Stairs
« Reply #26 on: May 01, 2009, 10:16:33 am »

First, I should say that I don't really see the issue here.  Staircases are built in multiple parts across multiple levels (and always will be), because the game needs to be able to give players a chance to see what they're digging into.  No suggestion can change that.

Every staircase currently in the game is easy for me to envision.  A few look odd or silly, but that's because they're only half-constructed.  I think, though, that the way it's set up now gives players important aspects of control over how their stairs are designed that all these suggestions would remove for no real benefit.

If you are suggesting that one construction / dig order appear on multiple floors at once...  that just seems like a bad idea to me.  It'd be more confusing than building it in parts, in the long run.  In fact, I'd say it's a terrible idea.

Constructions take up space; they prevent you from putting other things there.  The dwarves should never put a construction on a space where I didn't specifically order it.  Just because I build a staircase on one level and dig out above/below it doesn't meant that I want to waste space on another level with a staircase.  Sometimes I just want to link two floors without anything else.
To link two floors, you would build a staircase on the lower of the two floors. It would not link the floor below that, and you would not need to designate an extra "down staircase" on the upper floor.

Most importantly, though, I will often be just below the surface and will not want to break the surface.  The ability to order my dwarves to dig a purely 'down' staircase while expanding just below the surface is essential.  Automatically removing the ceiling (or pointlessly requiring that I dig, then construct)[/quote]

What we're suggesting (well, what I'm suggesting) is you can just designate a staircase on the lower level, and it will dig - just like a ramp, except without the annoying stuff that goes with ramps. You would not have to designate ANYTHING on the upper level (i.e. the one right below the surface), and certainly would not break the ceiling

Designating on the lower level does not mean you would have to "dig, then construct"

Quote
sound like terrible ideas to me when the current 'dig a downward-only staircase' works fine and makes perfect sense.

Sometimes I want to easily designate the digging of a staircase that will only go up, because (say) I'm digging a corridor that I want liquid to go through eventually.  The fact that there's an open area below shouldn't have any impact on that; if I want a staircase below, I will order a staircase below, and the game shouldn't try to be helpful by entering that order for me.

If you only want stairs up, only designate the staircase on the current level.

Quote
Other times I want to dig a staircase that will only go down (say, because there's nasty liquid above me, or the outside.)  If I wanted to remove the ceiling or to build a staircase on the floor above me, I'd have ordered that segment specifically.

If you want stairs to only go down, only designate them on the lower level:
Code: [Select]
_____ surface
__ __ F1
__\__ F2
Compare the current way,
Code: [Select]
_____ surface
__>__ F1
__<__ F2

Quote
Your suggestion, unless I'm missing something, would make both either very hard or impossible.  You're assuming that players will always want their staircases to connect to anything that they can connect to, and this is not a valid assumption.

Sometimes I use stairs for traffic control.  I might want to have an up-staircase leading further up, and below it, a down-staircase leading further down, without connecting the two.  Why are you insisting that I must connect the two?

Huh?
Right now to do that you have to designate FOUR things:
Code: [Select]
__>__ F1 (down staircase to F2)
__<__ F2 (up staircase to F1)
__>__ F3 (down staircase to F4)
__<__ F4 (up staircase to F3)

In this proposal, you would only have to designate two.
Code: [Select]
(note the floor below the staircases would not actually be broken)
__ __ F1 using \ for the new staircase proposal
__\__ F2
__ __ F3
__\__ F4

Again, F1 and F2 are linked, F3 and F4 are linked, F2 and F3 are not linked, just like you asked for, with half the work.

Quote
That's horrible.  This would pointlessly complicate construction by making it take twice as long to designate long up/down stairwells,

I am not sure if my proposal's same as what you're responding to, but... compare
Code: [Select]
__>__
__X__
__X__
__<__
with
Code: [Select]
__ __
__\__
__\__
__\__
One kind of designation instead of three, and one fewer.

Basically my proposal is to eliminate the "down staircase" and simply have the up staircase (in so far as it is on the level it goes up from) This could be done from above in one step just like current up ramps. (remember, there's not really such a thing as a down ramp).

As for seeing what you're digging into - one solution would be to - when digging from above into an unrevealed tile, reveal the tile as soon as the miner starts, and immediately cancel if you've detected warm/damp stone, or pause/zoom if you've struck orthoclase, and you can decide what to do then. Another solution would be to color floor tiles to match the level below instead of the one above. That perceived need doesn't have to be addressed in this _particular_ way of making staircases more awkward. I mean, you don't have to dig ramps in two parts.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2009, 10:24:28 am by Random832 »
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Silverionmox

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Re: Stairs
« Reply #27 on: May 01, 2009, 11:41:49 am »

Aquillion, random832 did describe it quite well.

I think it's more consistent and logical to have only one kind of stairs to build. As well, you build the stairs in the square where you designate them, and additionally remove the ceiling (which is logical, otherwise they wouldn't be useful as stairs). As it is now, you need to designate a down stair on the level above the actual stair. This also causes the possibility of stairs down and stairs up appearing, and you can't get respectively down or up, because the other half is missing somehow. That's not good for an interface. Experienced players will know the quirkiness of stairs, but they won't have trouble to adjust to this system either - because it is less complicated and still can do the same things. (Constructed stairs could omit the "remove ceiling above staircase" part, if necessary. It should then later be channeled or deconstructed, to allow the staircase to be used. )
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alfie275

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Re: Stairs
« Reply #28 on: May 01, 2009, 11:52:07 am »

What about up/down staircases? Also you could easily make a macro to simulate this when they get put in:
Send key 'd'
Send key 'u'
Send key 'return'
Send key 'return'
Send key 'space'
Send key 'space'
Send key '<'
Send key 'd'
Send key 'j'
Send key 'return'
Send key 'return'
Send key 'space'
Send key 'space'
Send key '>'


And what if you want a down stair but not an up? Or vice versa.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2009, 12:00:17 pm by alfie275 »
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Random832

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Re: Stairs
« Reply #29 on: May 01, 2009, 12:14:21 pm »

And what if you want a down stair but not an up? Or vice versa.

When would you ever want this? If the other stair isn't there (on the next level) _currently_, it's impossible to actually go down the stairs. Stairs should _always_ present a way to go between two levels. It's ridiculous to have a stairway to nowhere.

As for "what about up/down staircases" - going up or down would be handled by having a staircase on the level you would have an UD on (so you can go up) and a staircase on the level below (so you can go down).

There's no point to having a staircase that doesn't actually let you go in the direction it is in. (except for revealing, but that really should be handled differently.)
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