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[Silverionmox]

Currently, stairs (and ramps) are confusing, with their multiple types and multiple building methods.

I suggest to simplify it this way: a stair is a building in a space. If it is on floor 1, you can enter it on floor 1 and go to floor 2. You can enter it on floor 2 and go to floor 1.

Carving out a staircase should include removing the top floor (otherwise digging a staircase down would be impossible). Building one should not remove the top floor. If a staircase is blocked by a top floor, you can't go up or down. You can remove the top floor while standing on it, however.

This way, there is only one building (staircase) with two construction methods (with slight functional difference).

[Naze]

I haven't played DF in awhile but I recall there being only one stair construction and the the dug kind, doesn't seem that confusing.

[Silverionmox]

Stairs up, stairs down, stairs up/down, plus the dug out varieties for each, plus the ramps: that's a dozen. And then you still need to dig stairs down at stairs up etc. It's confusing at times to know what result you'll get, from where you can build them, whether it will remove the floor under them, etc. You can build stairs down, and stairs up and get the same result: that's confusing.

Its easier the above way: you just cut or build stairs, without specifying which: stairs always lead one tier up, and back down. They can be dug out from the side, from the bottom if standing on a staircase, or from the top. That's it. At the very least, the menu will be cleaned up.

[Time Kitten]

7 =! 12

Not til ropes and ladders possibly next version though (or, as is only considered, a version within save compatibility of next version)

[Silverionmox]

If that doesn't prove it's confusing 4 stair-and-ramp-related items in the b menu, 5 in the d menu. Seriously, it's inconsistent. Ramps are conceivably smooth stairs, but they get a whole different treatment with regards to construction etc.

[Draco18s]

How hard is this?

Stairs going up
Stairs going down
Stairs going up and down
And a ramp

[PTTG??]

I figure that "stairs" are actually more like ladders or very narrow spiral staircases because you can walk past them without climbing them; that is, they don't occupy the square. Ramps are ramps and shallow staircases, more like what you might think of as stairs, because in order to get from one side to the other, you need to climb up them.

The times that a cow can path up "ladders" or a cart can climb a straight staircase are all bugs. Like 30 dragons in one square.

Ramps need to be treated differently because they involve different pathing; you can go straight up a stack of stairs (or ladders), but need to walk along a ramp to climb up it.

[Footkerchief]

a stair is a building in a space. If it is on floor 1, you can enter it on floor 1 and go to floor 2. You can enter it on floor 2 and go to floor 1.

When you enter on floor 1 and go to floor 2, what do you end up standing on?  I'm guessing that the stair still has a tile-filling component on 1 and a floor component on 2, except that now, like a constructed wall, the components are always built together.  If you build another stair on floor 2, the floor component of the first stair becomes part of an up/down stairway.  Is this what you're envisioning?

[Silverionmox]

How hard is this?

Stairs going up
Stairs going down
Stairs going up and down
And a ramp

See, that's what I mean: all three of these are stairs going up, down and up and down depending on the viewpoint. There's no need to change the display, but there is need to change the construction: it can be done easily using only one item in the menu, and a duplicate for construction rather than carving. As it is non, designating a down staircase doesn't allow dwarves to go down when it's dug, regardless of the state of the square under it: the same goes for the other options. If that's not profoundly unlogical, I don't know what is. It's something you don't even think about when you're used to it, but is a uselessly steep part of the learning curve.

Ramps need to be treated differently because they involve different pathing; you can go straight up a stack of stairs (or ladders), but need to walk along a ramp to climb up it.

Then I would expect ramps to have a direction, rather than being all-purpose. Staircase are spiral, no problem, but ramps don't even work how they should, because they have no orientation. The icons are readily available, so that can't be the problem.

[Silverionmox]

a stair is a building in a space. If it is on floor 1, you can enter it on floor 1 and go to floor 2. You can enter it on floor 2 and go to floor 1.

When you enter on floor 1 and go to floor 2, what do you end up standing on?

The top of the stairs, which are on the same level as floor 2.

I'm guessing that the stair still has a tile-filling component on 1 and a floor component on 2, except that now, like a constructed wall, the components are always built together.  If you build another stair on floor 2, the floor component of the first stair becomes part of an up/down stairway.  Is this what you're envisioning?

What you do when carving a stair is, in my suggestion: a: carve steps, starting from the ground, allowing you to reach the ceiling and b: remove the ceiling. The result is that you can enter on level 1, go up and end up on the same level as 2, standing on top of the stairs. There's no floor, but you can stand on the top of the staircase. Starting from level 2 and going down would be designated by the player in exactly the same way (by marking the square on level 1 to be a staircase), because the dwarves can also remove the floor first. And that's it. One single designation for carving, and another single one for construction - instead of the half dozen we need now, and we need at least two to make a functioning staircase.

[Footkerchief]

There's no floor, but you can stand on the top of the staircase.

Okay.  But for display purposes, there needs to be something on the top floor, even if's just a "fake tile" like down ramps.

[Silverionmox]

Sure, there wouldn't even need to change anything in the display (stairs up and down can still combine into up/down staircases) - just the menu items and the construction possibilities.

[PTTG??]

Ramps need to be treated differently because they involve different pathing; you can go straight up a stack of stairs (or ladders), but need to walk along a ramp to climb up it.

Then I would expect ramps to have a direction, rather than being all-purpose. Staircase are spiral, no problem, but ramps don't even work how they should, because they have no orientation. The icons are readily available, so that can't be the problem.

Ramps do indeed have orientation in a sense. You can only climb up from a ramp square where there is a wall; in other words, a ramp slopes from the top of all adjacent walls to the floor of any adjacent open tiles. This is implied rather than displayed.

Of course, since we know tiles are almost certainly at least as tall as they are wide (beds and prone creatures aside), ramps should be 45 degree slopes. Naturally, much of both ramps and staircases are abstracted out.

[Random832]

How hard is this?

Stairs going up
Stairs going down
Stairs going up and down
And a ramp

ok, now show me a picture of stairs that go down, but do not reach the lower level.

[Silverionmox]

Yep, it's stuff like this they make them like:

Halfway