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Keep it as is

3 (12%)

Change it to a full Jester, with game-end on win

1 (4%)

Change it to a full Jester, but without game-end on win

5 (20%)

Change it to a full Jester, with game-end on win AFTER day 3

3 (12%)

Change it to a Jester with the loss of the Next Day phase

4 (16%)

Remove it entirely

9 (36%)

Other (explain)

0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 25

[dakarian]

@Leaf
You saw NOTHING!


@all

Decided that medium should be 'survive'.  All they do is listen and talk like normal townies.  Besides, it will help anti-towns who want to claim medium: all they have to do is not do any active actions.

[Mr.Person]

I'm not so sure "Manipulate" is a good goal to add. It sounds great on the Mind Control Ray user, but it sounds really bad on a Psychic Warden and the Watcher. Then again, considering the Watchers win-con, it might be better to stick him with "Kill" (So the Exterminator has a good fake-claim) and give the Mind Control Ray user the same goal as the person they mind-control, for the night. Poor Psychic Warden I guess just gets stuck with either "Find" or "Survive".

Also, since "Abduct" would come up only on a Seeker who tried to Abduct, which only matters if s Psyhchic Warden stops the alien, that result only matters in finding the Scientist, which is even WORSE than your "Manipulate" goal in coverage of roles in the future. I don't see the point in that goal. It should just be "Find" all the time, unless tech changes it. It's a corner-case that just adds confusion.

I don't think we need any more goals, right now. Four is enough, at least until more roles get added.

[Leafsnail]

I think "Manipulate" sounds fine - basically something you get if they were doing something to someone that isn't investigative, protecting, killing or abducting.  After all, the Psychic Warden manipulates people's minds to prevent them from doing anything, right?

Not sure about "abduct" since, as you say, only Scientists and Seekers would return it.  "Find" seems fine for of them.

[dakarian]

@Person

Watcher gets survive.  They don't have any active 'manipulate' powers.

Thus, manipulate would show for the Warden, Mind Control, Enchanter, and the stun powers.

That's not actually that bad, considering how vague a lot of the other items are.  Manipulate can stay.

As for abduct, you're right, that's just an 'instant Scientist' finder.  Meh. 

Ok, remove Abduct.  The abduct roles get permanent Find (again, unless tech changes it).

[Servant Corps]

Mind Control Ray: Can be used once per game. Usable during the day. Target a single individual person. That person will become mind-controlled for that day only, and you will be able to control that person's vote. Everyone will know he is mind-controlled for that day.

Use: Win the game if it is a LYLO situation for scum.

Also, if you holoform as a Role, you decide if this Role will be doing anything or not. In other words, if you holoform into a War Vet, you can decide if the "War Vet" turns on his power (and displays Kill as his goal), or if the "War Vet" turns off his power (and gets Survive as his goal).

[dakarian]

MCR update..  cool in theory.  However

Human Scientist has little use for it really.  As for the aliens, the only one that may have a use for it is the Exterminator and there's much better tech out there.

The dopps, however, would make good use of it.  How often does a dopp scientist show up?  If it's not insanely rare, I'd say go for it so the dopps get a fun toy.

Small suggestions though:  Make it every day (not just one time only) and make it so that only the target is told they are being controlled.

"OMG I'm being controled ..nooooo!"  *vote townie*

[Mr.Person]

MCR update..  cool in theory.  However

Human Scientist has little use for it really.  As for the aliens, the only one that may have a use for it is the Exterminator and there's much better tech out there.

The dopps, however, would make good use of it.  How often does a dopp scientist show up?  If it's not insanely rare, I'd say go for it so the dopps get a fun toy.

Small suggestions though:  Make it every day (not just one time only) and make it so that only the target is told they are being controlled.

"OMG I'm being controled ..nooooo!"  *vote townie*

That's way too powerful, and it wouldn't work anyways.

I think "Manipulate" sounds fine - basically something you get if they were doing something to someone that isn't investigative, protecting, killing or abducting.  After all, the Psychic Warden manipulates people's minds to prevent them from doing anything, right?

Not sure about "abduct" since, as you say, only Scientists and Seekers would return it.  "Find" seems fine for of them.

What I'm saying is, you need more than 3 roles to have the goal to make it fun, and some of the goals are stretched pretty thin while Survive has way too many roles under its expanse. I think some of the current "Survive" roles should be made into others, if possible, which is why I want the Watcher to have "Kill" (Exterminator fake-claim), I want the Psychic Warden to become "Protect", and the Witch to become "Kill" (A good fakeclaim for the killing scum, or even a survivor, or whatever). The Warden may not flow well, but sometime flavour has to take a backseat to balance because damnit, barely anything has "Protect". Besides, it kind of makes sense, he's trying to Protect everyone by stopping who he thinks is killing everyone. With the Watcher, if you don't give him Kill, at least give him "Protect". After all, he's really not trying to survive, why bother?

If you do decide to make tech change the goals, the sole exception should be that if a player performs a kill, there goal should ALWAYS be "Kill" for the night, no exceptions. Doesn't matter the source, doesn't matter why they died, if they killed a player, they show up as such to the Telepath. The same should be said for any inspections as "Find" and any protections, guards, or blocks as "Protect". (This might matter if roles like a Djinni or the Secret Admirer show up in later games.). Also, the Alien Survivor should probably always show up as "Survive". It is, after all, the ONLY thing he wants to do. Oh, and if a player used an Assassin Bot, they should show up as "Kill" the following night. Yeah, these are all corner cases, but hey, intense knowledge of the rules should be rewarded in some fashion. This is the discussion thread, after all.

[dakarian]

Meh..  considering how 'powered' the dopps are, I'm not sure that 'too much power' can really fit   I'll give it to you though.  Thing is, I'm not sure what can really be done with the ray that'll make it any more useful than the other techs for the folks who can use it.

As for the roles:

Watcher as 'kill' seems far fetched for one thing.  For another thing, I honestly think that the modulator shouldn't be one use but nightly.  All it really does is make the person fool investigative roles.  We put godfathers into newbie games for goodness sakes and that's the same thing!  Just making this possible will be enough to soften the investigators right there and then.  If the town dies because they can't investigate their way to a win, it's a bad sign on how role-needy the town is.

So I say 'survive' for watcher and exterminator should consider using a buffed modulator or just controling when they do their kills (since they won't show 'kill' if they don't kill)

Witch is already set to kill since they are a passive killer.

If we remove Manipulate, what would the Enchanter be?  What about stun bombs?  No effect?  That'll mean the alien would show as 'survive'.  Meanwhile, Find turns into an 'investigator finder' to 'misc' with almost no meaning.

And what's wrong with the telepath iding the Enchanter and Warden?  So long as they aren't town-only it's not THAT bad a deal (unlike, say, finding the dopps like they do now).  It beats everything being Survive or Find (with the rare 'kill')

[Mr.Person]

Good call on the Enchanter, but Survive works well enough. If more roles get added, another goal would be fine, however, for right now, especially with the aliens, it's too easy to know what they are beyond a shadow of a doubt to be a certain role. Like I said, it's not about flavour, it's about balance at this point, there really does need to be another alien that shows up as "Kill", preferably a leaning pro-town one. The Watcher being "Kill" works, and he's Doomspeaker for fuck's sake!

On that note, there really needs to be another alien with a "Protect" goal, since right now an alien with a Protect goal is an Operative, no exceptions. It would be nice if there was SOMETHING the operative could fake-claim, but I really can't think of what else could have a "Protect" goal.

I think things would be a lot better if the Dopp Seeker didn't lose from a miss and instead only has 1 abduction, but if he misses, becomes a mafia-ally. After all, if I figure out that the player isn't a dopp/cultist, why not just return to the planet and grab another player? I Meph, I would love to see an example flavor text of a Dopp Seeker who missed his abduction, it makes no sense to me that the Seeker wouldn't at least check their victim before leaving the planet.

If this happens, his pre-abduction goal would be "Find" but his post abduction goal would be "Protect".

Oh, and about the Agent Seeker: As it is, the Agent Seeker is pretty much a Vigilante who randomly wins and suicides if he hits scum. The Seeker should be allowed to not kill the people he/she contacts, but the scum should also not kill him in response to contact. After all, they're the only role that can get killed in response to doing anything to the scum (Minus the PWV), why do the scum suddenly lose the ability to kill people who do stuff to them during the night? They should totally be changed to be more anti-town, that's for sure. If they aren't changed, their weight should be moved toward +4 for the town, since they are pretty much a vigilante, just a smidge weaker.

[dakarian]

How does the telepath directly tell that the person they see are an alien.

Survive shows up for every role that isn't using their skill.

Find (the 'seeker' roles and some of the techs) is held by every one of the investigators (who will be using their skill every time).

Kill is meant to be the reason for the telepath to be useful for the town (who is most worried about such things anyway).  As it stands, you only see it when the person is actively killing (thus Exterminator NOT killing= survive) WITHOUT the Mod tech (you kill while hiding as a Guardian = Protect).  I'm NOT just thinking flavor: I'm thinking both "Why should we care to be a Telepath" and "what can we do if the telepath is against us".  The different types is so that the telepath has some real clue what's going on during the night.  The blend is to make sure they aren't an insta-win like they are now.

Exterminator can get around a telepath better than they can the detective.  They don't need a watcher as a 'telepath miller'.  Besides, I can fully see the watcher getting the Mod and choosing 'exterminator' just to pull a lynch on them. 

Operatives that do their ONE bodyguard move show up as Protect.  Guardians and Bodyguards also show up as Protect.  So will a bunch more if the Manipulate function is removed. 

So if the Operative was absolutely unlucky and gets spotted the one time they Protect, they can just claim Guardian. 

Note that this is still vague vs the other investigators.  Does an agent get 'town' if the Exterminator decided to hold their kill?  Does se see "town if a dopp wasn't the night killer?

If everyone showed as Find and Survive, we might as well remove the telepath. 

As for the dopp seeker: sounds pretty neat.

Agent Seeker: I like the whole 'kill if they contact' but I also like the 'don't die if they hit scum'.  If they hit scum, nothing happens, like the person was protected or shielded.  That makes them more anti-town than now.

[dakarian]

To rephrase what the telepath sees:

Message:  Possible role
Survive: Townie, Kook, Goth, Medium, nonactive Dopp/Cult, War vet turned off, Nonactive Vig/Agent/Detective/Telepath/Reporter/Guardian/Bodyguard/Warden/Enchanter/Scientist/Operative/Exterminator/Watcher,

Find: Active Agent/Detective/Telepath/Reporter, Inactive Hunters/Agentseekers,  Scientist with a Security System or using a Snooper, Any alien using the Scanner, Operative doing an investigate

Kill: Dopp/Cult with the mafiakill, War Vet, Witch, Scientist using Sentry Guns, Active Agent Seeker, active Exterminator, Operative making a kill, any alien using a Deadman bomb or Plasma bomb

Protect: Active Guardian, active Bodyguard, Operative using the bodyguard feature

Manipulate: Active Warden, Scientist/alien using the MCR, Witch, Enchanter, Operative using roleblock, Alien using the stun orb/bomb

Also, Modulator would turn the alien into any role they wish (with my alteration, this would be usable every night).


Not THAT easy to read a player and each anti-town role has a pro-town role they can fakeclaim.  The hardest part is that aliens can tend to look like different types when checked multiple nights, but telepath doesn't exactly have a lot of time to do that .

[CobaltKobold]

Do remember that a seeker winning is like a town death: minus one non-dopp vote.

It hasn't mattered, but it could.
Telepath thoughts:
1. I like the present fluff/crunch melding for all the roles, telepath included.
2. I think the telepath working only on a 'used' role makes them too weak
3. the present "kill" result is waaaay too strong, since it gets the main antitown: Exterminator, Scum.

So yeah, some manner of telepath-miller abilities seems about right for me. I think the reason there's still only 'protect' and no 'manipulate' is that else, your protects are all good.

Enchanter gets better for both sides if they work instead like a Secret [daypick] Motivational Voter- thatis, they can secretly change who their second vote is on during the day (including nobody/themselves)

[dakarian]

There is one advantage with the telepath seeing the 'used' role:

Someone claims "I, a guardian, protected soandso last night".  Telepath, however, saw them as "Survive".  Telepath just caught a lie.

Even "I tried to protect but was roleblocked" gets ruined since the telepath still sees them as Protect if they did just that.

Thus while the telepath gets some means to read the role, their TRUE power is to see what people are DOING during the night.  Honestly, the detective is for "What role am I"  Telepath is for "What did I do".

We could always just do it the Mafiachat way and turn it into "you see if they do an action or not" like Mafiachat's 'Watcher'.  I'm giving the telepath more power than that and it wasn't exactly weak as it was.

[CobaltKobold]

We could always just do it the Mafiachat way and turn it into "you see if they do an action or not" like Mafiachat's 'Watcher'.  I'm giving the telepath more power than that and it wasn't exactly weak as it was.

=one half of Reporter.

[Mephansteras]

Hmm...so this makes the Telepath a combination Reporter/Detective that is a bit weaker then either but has the advantage of not getting blasted by War Vets/Sentry Guns and can't be tracked by a Reporter. Seems like a decent combination.