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Keep it as is

3 (12%)

Change it to a full Jester, with game-end on win

1 (4%)

Change it to a full Jester, but without game-end on win

5 (20%)

Change it to a full Jester, with game-end on win AFTER day 3

3 (12%)

Change it to a Jester with the loss of the Next Day phase

4 (16%)

Remove it entirely

9 (36%)

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Total Members Voted: 25

[dakarian]

Web.. that helped a lot

Because now I see one of the big problems: There's nothing that can really hurt the town.


When you see mass roles show up, they tend to have aspects that backfire on the town.  Vigs that kill townies, cops that misread godfathers and millers, roleblockers that block townies, anti-town roles like Beloved Princess. 

I remember people fearing the PWV killing the town power roles.  I didn't realize they are rare now.  Meanwhile, there's little to backfire the investigation roles (which, again, are overpowered unless something trips them up). 

I disagree with the mass of PRs messing things up still.  I DO agree that the mass of GOOD TOWN PRS are messing things up.  If you want to remove or add weight to roles, start with those investigative roles.  If you want to add powers/roles, add roles that mess with those town powers (oo OO, Witch role:  Dopp only role that ruins a person's sanity: makes investigative roles go insane or other roles choose randomly.  Then, of course, there's redirecters).

If you want to just quirk up the ones we have.. add ailments and sanities.

[Mr.Person]

Four things:

First off, the Witch's goal should be "Kill". There should be at least one hard to confirm role with a "Kill" objective.

Second, as an extension to the above, I propose a new status: "Angry". A telepath gets a "Kill" objective from angry players, irregardless of the role that player has, the side of the player, or what they did that night.

Third, scum should only show up as "Kill" if they actually did the night kill. Otherwise, they should show up as their role normally would. This is a big change, but it would really help the scum a lot, I think. Alternatively, this could be a way to separate the cult from the dopps, if you want to go that route.

Fourth, I agree totally that the alien techs and scientist techs need to be rebalanced. Mind Control Ray needs a major buff, Stun Orb needs to be cut, Plasma Bomb needs a nerf and made into a 1-slot tech, and the Scientist should only have 1 tech slot. Also, the Mad Scientist and 1-slot Alien tech items should look a lot more similar, imo. Of course, not ALL the techs should be available to each other, namely the Scanner, but others, such as the Deadman Bomb, would be great additions. I think a Sentry Gun+Shield toting Exterminator might actually stand a chance... although that would be a tad obvious.

[webadict]

When I say Telepath destroys it, I mean that claiming it as scum makes it show up a Kill Result no matter what, and with Detectives and Agents, there's nothing you can claim that's safe.

[Leafsnail]

When I say Telepath destroys it, I mean that claiming it as scum makes it show up a Kill Result no matter what, and with Detectives and Agents, there's nothing you can claim that's safe.

Yeah, but what do the "Medium destroys it" comments mean?

[webadict]

Well, I meant that the Medium can get any investigation from dead players, so scum can't kill a player and get an idea.

[CobaltKobold]

"Psychic Warden : Common town role. Lots of threat to scum. Makes it so Telepath can get Kill result on people."

...Oh, right, block so they can't get other role-objective.

Town medium and dopp medium cancel each other out in terms of nasty things they can do with/to a townbase.  If you give them 'find' (they're an info role, sort of) then they'd be a bit better for dopps, as their ability is always acti'e, if you keep the "role used o'errides race"

Telepath presently gets always useful data.

Other Telepath-miller word options: Inquisitive/curious(find), fearful(survive),altruist(protect)

[dakarian]

I like the idea that the telepath reads more about what the person has done rather than what their 'goal' is.  If the person killed it reads 'kill'.  If they protected 'protect' and if they did nothing 'survive' or simply 'nothing'.  Then, a dopp guardian could hide by simply not doing anything and looking like a townie.

That would help to differentiate it from a detective more, help give it a good use (to tell if someone did something and what) but doesn't turn it into a dopp hunting machine. 

And roles that passively try to kill (i.e. kill if killed or kill if targetted) would get the 'kill' reply. 

[CobaltKobold]

I like the idea that the telepath reads more about what the person has done

that makes it a weak detecti'e which doesn't get defense-killed and something that specially blocks it

Side Order of WIFOM: Telepath sees vdopp as 'kill', vtownie as 'survive'. It's a scumtell to want to survive.

[Leafsnail]

Haha.  Indeed it is.

But yes, having a telepath show what someone is doing would probably be more interesting, and would have the slight advantage of being able to trace a kill back to someone.

Actually, something else which is interesting is that some roles, although anti-scum, have pro-scum possibilities.

So, let's say there is, for instance, a bulletproof role (not suggesting this as a role, just using it as an example).  A bulletproof towny is obviously very anti-scum, but the possibility of a bulletproof towny is actually pro-scum - it would be a good way of explaining how an experienced scum team member has lasted so long.

[dakarian]

A weaker investigative role is better than a stronger one, considering how easy they can break games. 

Also, detectives, IIRC, view a doppleganger guardian as a 'guardian' even if the dopp kills.  Telepaths would see the 'kill'.  Even if the dopp  protects instead, they can tell the detective that they did nothing (silly but there you go) while the telepath would catch that.

OTOH, right now the telepath is a detective and an agent that rarely gets false positives (since town killing roles aren't common), occasionaly gets false negatives (when the dopp has a power role and keeps using it), doesn't fear physical traps and is blocked by ONE special effect that, chances are, is on an alien or townie.

The problem is power roles being TOO powerful.  There's nothing wrong with a weak power role if it's interesting and being able to tell what a person does each night is NOT weak.

[webadict]

A weaker investigative role is better than a stronger one, considering how easy they can break games. 

Also, detectives, IIRC, view a doppleganger guardian as a 'guardian' even if the dopp kills.  Telepaths would see the 'kill'.  Even if the dopp  protects instead, they can tell the detective that they did nothing (silly but there you go) while the telepath would catch that.

OTOH, right now the telepath is a detective and an agent that rarely gets false positives (since town killing roles aren't common), occasionaly gets false negatives (when the dopp has a power role and keeps using it), doesn't fear physical traps and is blocked by ONE special effect that, chances are, is on an alien or townie.

The problem is power roles being TOO powerful.  There's nothing wrong with a weak power role if it's interesting and being able to tell what a person does each night is NOT weak.

Kinda like watching what ability you used. That IS a nice role. I like it.

[Leafsnail]

I'd support the new idea for the telepath.  It's interesting, and makes it more than just "A better version of the agent that bounces off the mindshield".

[dakarian]

As for how everyone would look to the telepath:

Survive = default when no other result fits.

    * Townie: Survive
    * Kook: Survive
    * Goth: Survive
    * Doppelganger/Cult: Kill only when performing their mafiakill. 
    * War Vet: Kill when ability is active (even if no one dies)
    * Vigilante: Kill only when performing kill
    * Agent: Find when actively investigating
    * Detective: Find when actively investigating
    * Telepath: Find when actively investigating
    * Medium: Survive, always
    * Reporter: Find when actively investigating
    * Guardian: Protect when actively protecting
    * Bodyguard: Protect when actively protecting
    * Psychic Warden: Manipulate, when active
    * Mad Scientist: depends on invention
          o Body Double: Survive
          o Security System: Find, always active
          o Sentry Guns: Kill, when active
          o Snooper bot: Find, when active
          o Assassin bot: Survive (since it cannot be active at night)
          o Mind Control Ray: Manipulate, when active
    * Witch/Warlock: Kill, always active
    * Enchanter: Manipulate, when active
    * Agent Seeker: Kill if alien choose a person that is not the agent.  Find if the person locates the agent.  Survive otherwise.
    * Doppelganger/Cult Hunter: Abduct if an attempt is made.  Survive otherwise.
    * Alien Scientist: Abduct if an attempt is made.  Survive otherwise
    * Survivor: Kill
    * Exterminator: Kill if an attempt is made
    * Operative: Find, Kill, Manipulate, or Protect depending on action. 
    * Watcher: Survive

Alien tech:  Alters the alien's action as follows:
    * Personal Shield: No alteration
    * Holoform Modulator: Displays alien as performing the action of the chosen role (i.e. If Guardian, they show as Protect.  If Vet, show as Kill, ext)
    * Scanner: Find
    * Deadman bomb: Kill, always active (similar mentality to the Witch)
    * Assassin bot: No Alteration
    * Mind Control Ray: Manipulate
    * Intel: No alteration (since effect occured before game begins)
    * Plasma Bomb: Kill, if used
    * Stun Orb: Manipulate
    * Stun Bomb: Manipulate
    * Human Tech: No alteration (though note when active the alien is killing anyway)
    * Combat Camouflage: No alteration (though note when active the alien is killing anyway)

    * Mind Shield: Shielded

[Mephansteras]

Hmmm. Yeah I think that idea could work.

[Leafsnail]

Sounds very good, dakarian.  I would suggest that the Mind Control Ray for the Mad Scientist is probably a clear candidate for Manipulate though.