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Keep it as is

3 (12%)

Change it to a full Jester, with game-end on win

1 (4%)

Change it to a full Jester, but without game-end on win

5 (20%)

Change it to a full Jester, with game-end on win AFTER day 3

3 (12%)

Change it to a Jester with the loss of the Next Day phase

4 (16%)

Remove it entirely

9 (36%)

Other (explain)

0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 25

[Leafsnail]

Seems a bit... unfair to the scum, in a way.  Firstly, detectives will become Agents, to some extent, as "No role" suddenly becomes "Scum".  Also, the Cult Leader/ Dopp Leaders will lose their resistance to detectives.  It also means it's harder for the scum to claim something that can't be rumbled by a CT.

[webadict]

Seems a bit... unfair to the scum, in a way.  Firstly, detectives will become Agents, to some extent, as "No role" suddenly becomes "Scum".  Also, the Cult Leader/ Dopp Leaders will lose their resistance to detectives.  It also means it's harder for the scum to claim something that can't be rumbled by a CT.

We could try getting rid of the CT...

[Leafsnail]

I guess we'd need to axe all the investigative roles, then.  Telepath + Agent = confirmed towny.

[webadict]

I guess we'd need to axe all the investigative roles, then.  Telepath + Agent = confirmed towny.

Not if you lie enough.

[JanusTwoface]

Ok, I'll give you the point that CT's are problematic.

The problem is less with Investigative roles as it is with the DoT.  It's a powerful role that can either guarantee scum or CT if we lynch the DoT (who become VT).  For the Telepath + Agent, we'd have to either confirm both or kill both to get a CT.  It's just not worth it.

Also, I went back and looked at the game results and I see what you mean.  Making the game harder for the scum seems mildly problematic as they haven't won since Round 3.  Mayhaps we should buff the scum somehow instead to try to work on game balance?

Spoiler: Paranormal results (click to show/hide)

Round 1 - Dopps + Survivor
Round 2 - Town
Round 3 - Dopps
Round 4 - Town + Dopp Hunter
Round 5 - Town + Agent Seeker + Dopp Hunter (Ghost)
Round 6 - Town
Round 7 - Town (2x Mafia cross killing)
Round 8 - Town + Scientist
Round 9 - Town
Round 10 - Ongoing

Granted, a few of the games were kind of close... (Round 9 )

[ToonyMan]

I will have something to say when Round 10 is over.

[Leafsnail]

I like thinking about what would happen if the world continued to run.  Like, having you, a lonely medium, sitting alone while a whole load of voices in your head yell random things at you, ranging from "Thanks for killing all the dopps!" to "ARGH YOU KILLED ME I'LL BE BACK".

And I will have some stuff to say after Round 10 too.

[webadict]

Ok, I'll give you the point that CT's are problematic.

The problem is less with Investigative roles as it is with the DoT.  It's a powerful role that can either guarantee scum or CT if we lynch the DoT (who become VT).  For the Telepath + Agent, we'd have to either confirm both or kill both to get a CT.  It's just not worth it.

Also, I went back and looked at the game results and I see what you mean.  Making the game harder for the scum seems mildly problematic as they haven't won since Round 3.  Mayhaps we should buff the scum somehow instead to try to work on game balance?

Spoiler: Paranormal results (click to show/hide)

Round 1 - Dopps + Survivor
Round 2 - Town
Round 3 - Dopps
Round 4 - Town + Dopp Hunter
Round 5 - Town + Agent Seeker + Dopp Hunter (Ghost)
Round 6 - Town
Round 7 - Town (2x Mafia cross killing)
Round 8 - Town + Scientist
Round 9 - Town
Round 10 - Ongoing

Granted, a few of the games were kind of close... (Round 9 )

I would like to say that one of those games would've been won for Dopps if some small thing had been changed. Also, I won for all those Dopp wins (High five! I've won 7/9!) Perhaps it is simply OVERLOAD OF ROLES SINCE ROUND THREE?!?!?!?!?

Come on. It's tough with so many roles and so many players with them. I think the removal of roles helps, instead of removing the plain ol' roles.

[Leafsnail]

Shouldn't the dopps having more roles counter this?  And the relatively role free game, round 7, didn't exactly go great for the mafias...

[webadict]

Shouldn't the dopps having more roles counter this?  And the relatively role free game, round 7, didn't exactly go great for the mafias...

Round 7 had two mafias...

[Leafsnail]

Well, yeah.  It's odd, since other games seem to work with 2 mafias.  Perhaps the whole Servant Corps/ Toony thing didn't help the cultists either.  Neither did the final cultist being a lurker...

[dakarian]

Other games can work with 2 mafias because the town tends to be weaker.  It's well established that 2 mafia groups actually weaken the mafia overall due to crossfire.

Most of the roles out there give the town a ton of power, to the point where they can rely fully on their roles to out the scum.  Giving the scum powers helps...a little, but only to a point since their main problem isn't locating players but, instead, avoiding discovery.

In short: there's too many ways for the town to find the scum.  Meanwhile, the scum have very little to use in avoiding detection.

Note that the last batch of advances given were to the aliens which, while not always pro-town, isn't pro-scum either. 


If you want more powers but add to the balance, then you need pro-scum roles.  Specifically, you need roles that help the mafia trick the town.

i.e. Where's the redirecters?  A dopp redirecter would make a nice counter to those investigative roles. 

There's always sharpshooters: mafia that can bypass guardians and bodyguards.

Dopp/cult Role where everything, including the DOT, that targets it is redirected to some random person.

Basically, anti-power role scum roles so that the town can't 110% trust their findings.

[webadict]

Other games can work with 2 mafias because the town tends to be weaker.  It's well established that 2 mafia groups actually weaken the mafia overall due to crossfire.

Most of the roles out there give the town a ton of power, to the point where they can rely fully on their roles to out the scum.  Giving the scum powers helps...a little, but only to a point since their main problem isn't locating players but, instead, avoiding discovery.

In short: there's too many ways for the town to find the scum.  Meanwhile, the scum have very little to use in avoiding detection.

Note that the last batch of advances given were to the aliens which, while not always pro-town, isn't pro-scum either. 


If you want more powers but add to the balance, then you need pro-scum roles.  Specifically, you need roles that help the mafia trick the town.

i.e. Where's the redirecters?  A dopp redirecter would make a nice counter to those investigative roles. 

There's always sharpshooters: mafia that can bypass guardians and bodyguards.

Dopp/cult Role where everything, including the DOT, that targets it is redirected to some random person.

Basically, anti-power role scum roles so that the town can't 110% trust their findings.

It's also a very newbie friendly game. Yes, we'd love to weaken the town with MORE power roles... But I think it needs less.

Like the Detective. He can go. He's like an Agent except lamer. And get rid of the DoT. Then it's perfect!

[Servant Corps]

Well, yeah.  It's odd, since other games seem to work with 2 mafias.  Perhaps the whole Servant Corps/ Toony thing didn't help the cultists either.  Neither did the final cultist being a lurker...

Huh? What did I do during that game? All I did was claim Survivor Alien, but that really didn't do much.

[webadict]

Well, yeah.  It's odd, since other games seem to work with 2 mafias.  Perhaps the whole Servant Corps/ Toony thing didn't help the cultists either.  Neither did the final cultist being a lurker...

Huh? What did I do during that game? All I did was claim Survivor Alien, but that really didn't do much.

I think he means Duke and Toony.