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Keep it as is

3 (12%)

Change it to a full Jester, with game-end on win

1 (4%)

Change it to a full Jester, but without game-end on win

5 (20%)

Change it to a full Jester, with game-end on win AFTER day 3

3 (12%)

Change it to a Jester with the loss of the Next Day phase

4 (16%)

Remove it entirely

9 (36%)

Other (explain)

0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 25

[Mephansteras]

Actually, they can be idenitifed by the Agent.

Correct. Originally I had them identified by the Detective, but decided that unbalanced things too much. So the Agent figures out all Races now. Cultists just count as Human Cultist instead of Human. It's more a grouping distinction then anything else.

Oh, several rules clarifications should we have a Cult only game:

Dopp Hunter will be replaced with a Cult hunter. Different reasons for what he does, and a different target, but otherwise functions the same.
Alien Scientist will need to abduct a Human, a Human Cultist, and an Alien for study.

That's pretty much it, I think. Everyone else should remain pretty much the same.

[Leafsnail]

Alien Scientist will need to abduct a Human, a Human Cultist, and an Alien for study.

I suppose that means in large games he'll need a human, a cultist, a dopp and an alien?

[Mephansteras]

Alien Scientist will need to abduct a Human, a Human Cultist, and an Alien for study.

I suppose that means in large games he'll need a human, a cultist, a dopp and an alien?

No, he only ever needs three abductees. Although I suppose in a mixed-faction game I could have Cult oriented aliens instead of Dopp oriented aliens and it would all work out ok.

[Leafsnail]

Yeah, so if there was the possibility of a dopp seeker or a cult seeker then it would all balance out.

[dakarian]

Cult seems fine, though two 'enemy forces' does seem pro-town so it would probably be best to mark it as a bonus to town in calculations.  The benefit it gives the enemy by being able to Truly hunt 'scum' isn't enough to weaken the crossfire effect.

Hmm, evil idea: make each side immune to each other's nightkills.  The pm flavor text could show a shootout ending in a draw, signaling that both people are rivals.  causing the two groups to have to manipulate the day lynchings to weaken each other.  When Pro-towns = one of the groups:

If one side is larger than the other (i.e. 2 cult, 2 town, 1 mafia), the larger side wins (RP: larger side ambushes smaller side, then imposes themselves on the town).  If both sides are equal ( 2 town, 2 cult, 2 mafia) the town wins (shootout happens taking out both sides, leaving town alone). 

With that, you eliminate cross fire yet force the sides to try to weaken each other.  It would also make a very crazy daytime as each side tries to rig the vote while the town tries to read the byplay between them (OMG, Soandso pushed hard to kill that cult.  They MUST be mafia!).  The endings also avoid Happily Ever After and eliminate any wish for the two rivals to group up and mass kill the town.

[Rysith]

Hmm, evil idea: make each side immune to each other's nightkills.  The pm flavor text could show a shootout ending in a draw, signaling that both people are rivals.  causing the two groups to have to manipulate the day lynchings to weaken each other.  When Pro-towns = one of the groups:

I'm fairly certain that that's not really what would happen, especially with the ending, in those scenarios. Scum A would need to outnumber townies + Scum B for the game to end, since townies can still vote (so 2 cult + 2 townies > 3 dopps, for example).

One possibility to reduce cross-kills, at least at the beginning, would be to have cult dopp detectors and dopp cult detectors. While that's similar to making them immune to eachother's nightkills, I think that having them remain nightkill-able would prevent simply throwing them to the lynch mob on discovery.

I'd definitely agree that we need more than 25% scum for multiple scum groups to work, likely something like 40% + more power roles. That means that each scum group has 20% of the player base (so a bit smaller than a single scum group), and the power roles to avoid accidentally killing off 50% of the scum in the first two days.

[Alexhans]

PROBLEM: This game is unbalanced.
WRONG APPROACH: Let's add more power roles to balance it!! Wooh!! Power Roles!!

Real solution: Keep it simple.  Remove the Cultists so everything is more straightforward and doesn't depend so much on luck.

[webadict]

PROBLEM: This game is unbalanced.
WRONG APPROACH: Let's add more power roles to balance it!! Wooh!! Power Roles!!

Real solution: Keep it simple.  Remove the Cultists so everything is more straightforward and doesn't depend so much on luck.

I agree. We all loved it with the few powers it had at the beginning.

[Servant Corps]

PROBLEM: This game is unbalanced.
WRONG APPROACH: Let's add more power roles to balance it!! Wooh!! Power Roles!!

Real solution: Keep it simple.  Remove the Cultists so everything is more straightforward and doesn't depend so much on luck.

Super-Real Solution: No balance since balance could lead to a boring and predictable game, Make sure it's fun. Having two scum groups are fun. Therefore keep them.

[webadict]

PROBLEM: This game is unbalanced.
WRONG APPROACH: Let's add more power roles to balance it!! Wooh!! Power Roles!!

Real solution: Keep it simple.  Remove the Cultists so everything is more straightforward and doesn't depend so much on luck.

Super-Real Solution: No balance since balance could lead to a boring and predictable game, Make sure it's fun. Having two scum groups are fun. Therefore keep them.

Well, as much fun as unpredictable COULD be, it's not really the game we were expecting. We'd much rather have a fair game for both sides...

[Alexhans]

Super-Real Solution: No balance since balance could lead to a boring and predictable game, Make sure it's fun. Having two scum groups are fun. Therefore keep them.

It's evident that you've never been scum in paranormal... 

The first games were fun and they didn't have so much stuff in them.  So your point that we need 2 scum teams is absurd.  Swingy games are not fun.  They're frustrating because you could perfectly throw a couple of AI bots and make them play because it's not really up to them but up to the combination of random night actions...

It's funny how people think with their last allignment in mind.  Town players want more things to favour town and viceversa.  We must avoid this.  We have to design for the sake of general balance in mind.

[Servant Corps]

Super-Real Solution: No balance since balance could lead to a boring and predictable game, Make sure it's fun. Having two scum groups are fun. Therefore keep them.

It's evident that you've never been scum in paranormal... 

The first games were fun and they didn't have so much stuff in them.  So your point that we need 2 scum teams is absurd.

1) I want to be scum though. Luck just made it so I could not.
2) The first game may have been fun, but if we replay the same setting over and over, we will learn all the ins-and-outs of the system, Alexhans. We would exploit every strategy over and over, and then it would get boring. The only fun that would exist would come from the Meta, and I loathe the Meta.

Swingy games are not fun.  They're frustrating because you could perfectly throw a couple of AI bots and make them play because it's not really up to them but up to the combination of random night actions...

3) "Swingy" games are fun. You are ignoring the prospects of WIFOM choices, or how a lucky break could swing the game to and for your way. You could attempt to use more strategy, trying to deal with the different and varied situation in question.

[Alexhans]

2) right... that's why all mafiascum mini normals are the same and people break them so easyly...  (That was sarcasm, btw)

3) So I'm just a lame player who doesn't strategize... 

if you're targeted for a cross kill there's not much you can do... Good poker players don't gamble.  They play the odds and read others.

[dakarian]

I'm fairly certain that that's not really what would happen, especially with the ending, in those scenarios. Scum A would need to outnumber townies + Scum B for the game to end, since townies can still vote (so 2 cult + 2 townies > 3 dopps, for example).

One possibility to reduce cross-kills, at least at the beginning, would be to have cult dopp detectors and dopp cult detectors. While that's similar to making them immune to eachother's nightkills, I think that having them remain nightkill-able would prevent simply throwing them to the lynch mob on discovery.

I'd definitely agree that we need more than 25% scum for multiple scum groups to work, likely something like 40% + more power roles. That means that each scum group has 20% of the player base (so a bit smaller than a single scum group), and the power roles to avoid accidentally killing off 50% of the scum in the first two days.

If it became 3 town/2 cult/3 dopp (note that's when my scenerio would end), then town is effectively dead.  The cult would definably side with the town, but the town would have no reason to care in taking down the dopps.  Assuming the town didn't want either side to win, they COULD kill a dopp, then prey for both sides to kill each other.  Then it's a matter of who kills who in the night, probably leading to 2 dead cults, 2 dead dopps, and a victorious town.  The better alternative would be for the cults and dopps to group up, wipe out the town, then evoke Happily Ever After.  However it ends, the game then becomes based on who shoots who in the night with many silly and annoying-for-all things happening and a random winner.  Best just to have it end. 


As for the KISS idea..perhaps the better argument would be on HOW MANY power roles are in a single game.  It's neat to have tons and tons of possible roles with unlimited possibilities, but the game itself may do well with less roles showing up overall.  A game with just 2 aliens and no other PRs.  A game with JUST a dopp doc and a vanilla dopp.  10 player game with 2 town, 4 cult and 4 dopps without a declared number of either (DO IT!  DO IT FOR THE LULZ!).  A game that's said to have dops but actually just has 1 exterminator. 

Keep the insane-long list, but have simpler games overall.  Less RolePower.  More unexpected randomness (imagine everyone looking for aliens, reporters, and what not with the game turning up PURE vanilla!).

[Mr.Person]

Actually, there appears to be a large number of townies in the current Paranormal game going on.