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Keep it as is

3 (12%)

Change it to a full Jester, with game-end on win

1 (4%)

Change it to a full Jester, but without game-end on win

5 (20%)

Change it to a full Jester, with game-end on win AFTER day 3

3 (12%)

Change it to a Jester with the loss of the Next Day phase

4 (16%)

Remove it entirely

9 (36%)

Other (explain)

0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 25

[Tiruin]

And for extra fun if the Mind Stealer is killed/lynched have all the roles they stole randomly given to vanilla players.

Hmm. Yeah, that could be fun.

Writing the flavor,  however, would be quite interesting (if not for the fact that the roleflip is visible).

"My memories go onto you." and such. However there'd be quite a stir if the MS captures both a dopp and a townie, and somehow those roles 'remix'.

[Mephansteras]

Well, yes, but I can simply make it so that only Role information gets passed and nothing about human/dopp or anything like that. And the Dopp specific roles can simply not pass on to a Human in order to prevent any meta knowledge from being passed.

[webadict]

Well, yes, but I can simply make it so that only Role information gets passed and nothing about human/dopp or anything like that. And the Dopp specific roles can simply not pass on to a Human in order to prevent any meta knowledge from being passed.

Wouldn't this make it benefit Town more, though? Why not just allow Town players to get Doppelganger roles? Have the Mind Stealer have previously stolen roles that you can mix in. This prevents a lot more meta knowledge than your proposed idea, while also allowing for crazy things.

I mean, I'd love to see an Advanced Doppelganger become a human role through brain mix-ups.

This also allows previously Vanilla roles to gain roles, and not be left out. Look at web, solving the hard problems.

[Mephansteras]

I can't really see how Advanced Doppelganger would work as a human role, though. Tough Dopp, sure, but Advanced? After all, it's not the mind that lets a Doppelganger mimic another person (at least not wholly)

[Tiruin]

Would that also affect alignment? Because I'd see a Townie gaining 'Dopp' status only as a detriment to any investigative roles (and a +scum bonus), vice versa to a Dopp gaining a Human role (if originally a Dopp and nothing else).

[Toaster]

A human getting a Dopp role and becoming Kooky as a result isn't that out there flavorfully.

Of course, how many Dopp-only roles are there?  Advanced, Leader, and Tough?  Leader is a bit silly and Advanced is troublesome balance-wise, so it's a bit much just for Tough.

[webadict]

I can't really see how Advanced Doppelganger would work as a human role, though. Tough Dopp, sure, but Advanced? After all, it's not the mind that lets a Doppelganger mimic another person (at least not wholly)

Well, it would clearly try to absorb someone's role, but would fail. I mean, they're not an actual Doppelganger. But, they WOULD eat someone.

[Mephansteras]

I think I'm going to go with the idea of the Mind Stealer needing X successful abductions to win the game. A stolen role is added to their Collection, which will include 3 random roles at the start of the game. Should the Mind Stealer be killed, all roles in their Collection will be randomly distributed to players who have a Vanilla Role of some sort. So, vanilla town, vanilla dopp, maybe Survivor Alien?

Survivor Aliens getting a role would make things interesting. Their win-con would stay the same, but they'd suddenly have some interesting and unexpected role to possibly help them fulfill it.

One thought on the Mind Stealer's win-con: What if they needed to steal X 'points' worth of roles, and got tech? That way they could take some investigative tech to try and bag better roles (Wardens, Advanced Dopps, stuff like that), or Defensive Tech to try and say alive long enough to grab enough randomly selected roles? It would certainly make the role a little more interesting to play, although it'd be slightly harder to balance. Still, I could pull the points off of my weights spreadsheet that the perl script uses to generate the set-up, so it wouldn't be too bad.

Thoughts?

[doll]

I think I'm going to go with the idea of the Mind Stealer needing X successful abductions to win the game. A stolen role is added to their Collection, which will include 3 random roles at the start of the game. Should the Mind Stealer be killed, all roles in their Collection will be randomly distributed to players who have a Vanilla Role of some sort. So, vanilla town, vanilla dopp, maybe Survivor Alien?

Survivor Aliens getting a role would make things interesting. Their win-con would stay the same, but they'd suddenly have some interesting and unexpected role to possibly help them fulfill it.

I think this could work.
They will essentially town-side (to delay the game) until the last night, where they are likely to betray whoever is losing.
Players will know that there is a mind stealer and who it is, which should make for interesting play.

One thought on the Mind Stealer's win-con: What if they needed to steal X 'points' worth of roles, and got tech? That way they could take some investigative tech to try and bag better roles (Wardens, Advanced Dopps, stuff like that), or Defensive Tech to try and say alive long enough to grab enough randomly selected roles? It would certainly make the role a little more interesting to play, although it'd be slightly harder to balance. Still, I could pull the points off of my weights spreadsheet that the perl script uses to generate the set-up, so it wouldn't be too bad.

I think this is too meta.
It would be an interesting exercise for players trying a purely mechanical approach to the game, but it inhibits playing the core game.
Because of the power of the mind stealer, dealing with (including making deals with) the mind stealer is very important. This would push the mind stealer's wincon too heavily into the daygame in my opinion.


A completely alternative approach to mind stealing: Mind Swapping:
This Mind Stealer is an alien with no win con, tech (I'm thinking 1 large tech), and a full role swap ability which occurs in the morning.
This Mind Stealer is absolutely lynchable, because it consists of an auto-lose threat to every player every night that it is allowed to exist.
At lylo, this Mind Stealer must side with town.
Players who held this old maid of a Mind Stealer for a night will have gained super-cop information about one or more players, and can bus the new Mind Stealer. Players can prevent the Mind Stealer from swapping with them (e.g. on the last night) by killing it. This Mind Stealer is a reverse survivor, which wishes to extend the game rather than end it.

[Mephansteras]

Why would people know who the Mind Stealer is?

[Leafsnail]

I think the Xenozoologist has a similar but more interesting win condition than that. Redistributing roles at random on death just seems swingy, and it's weird that the actual Mind Stealer won't care about it (because they'll have already lost at that point).

I think having your wincon changed is a lot less fun in practice than it is in theory (it makes all the effort you put into the game previously meaningless) and I wouldn't like a role that causes it to happen pretty much randomly a bunch of times. You'd also have to make sure Doppelgangers are immune to it.

[Mephansteras]

Well, this version wouldn't change wincons or teams on people, just roles. So a Doppelganger would never stop being a Doppelganger, they'd just pick up some other role (Like Bodyguard or whatnot).

Possibly kinda swingy, though, you're right about that. Could just have them strip roles and no give them back, which was the original idea. If it is 'abduct X people' or 'abduct X points of Roles' then the Mindstealer also isn't changing Wincon ever.

It is a similar concept to the Xenozoologist, although and important difference in that the Mind Stealer doesn't permanently abduct anyone. 

[doll]

Why would people know who the Mind Stealer is?

Isn't the Mind Stealer putting the people it is abducting back into the town?
It's not going to take more than a cycle to figure out who the Mind Stealer is if the abducted player outs them as soon as they get back to town.

I think that Leafsnail's wincon change comments are directed towards me.

I think having your wincon changed is a lot less fun in practice than it is in theory (it makes all the effort you put into the game previously meaningless) and I wouldn't like a role that causes it to happen pretty much randomly a bunch of times. You'd also have to make sure Doppelgangers are immune to it.

No, you'd have to make sure that Doppelgangers are not immune to it.
However, I was considering this from a naked standpoint and not considering the existing administrative techniques, and their inability to operate this sort of situation.

[fillipk]

I would love to contribute to this discussion but I can't find the Mindstealer role in the list of possible roles or proposed roles, am I just missing it or is it somewhere special?

[Mephansteras]

Why would people know who the Mind Stealer is?

Isn't the Mind Stealer putting the people it is abducting back into the town?
It's not going to take more than a cycle to figure out who the Mind Stealer is if the abducted player outs them as soon as they get back to town.

Ah, I see. No, abductees do not get to know who their abductor is (generally speaking, anyway).

I would love to contribute to this discussion but I can't find the Mindstealer role in the list of possible roles or proposed roles, am I just missing it or is it somewhere special?

Harvester
    Race: Alien
    Goal: Kill/Find
    Rules: The Harvester is collecting things for its own purposes. There are two different types of Harvesters. A Harvester may choose to Abduct another player during the Night Phase.
      Organ Harvester - The Abducted player is killed. The Harvester acts as a Doom Speaker, and is building an Abomination. After some # of nights (based on player count) the Abomination is released and performs a Night Kill attempt on every player.
      Mind Stealer - Copies the Role from the Abducted player for the following day/night as well as the Win Condition of that player until a new one is acquired. The abducted player reverts to a vanilla role for the rest of the game(Aliens will all become survivors). If the Mind Stealer doesn't have any other goal, then it is a Survivor.     
    Tech: 0 Slots
    Victory: Organ Harvester wins when all other players are dead. The OH must be alive at the end of the game. The Mind Stealer wins if its current win condition is fulfilled.

I bolded the Mind Stealer section. That is, obviously, the old rules on it that I am considering replacing.