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Keep it as is

3 (12%)

Change it to a full Jester, with game-end on win

1 (4%)

Change it to a full Jester, but without game-end on win

5 (20%)

Change it to a full Jester, with game-end on win AFTER day 3

3 (12%)

Change it to a Jester with the loss of the Next Day phase

4 (16%)

Remove it entirely

9 (36%)

Other (explain)

0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 25

[Leafsnail]

Also realize that everyone else in the game knows someone is trying to get lynched.  That will make the role tough.

[Mephansteras]

Hmm...that does make for an interesting Jester role. Certainly more strategy to it than your basic jester.

Did some more simulations with the Arson style SS. I think it'll work fine, as long as I remove the infected spreading spores on death. That removes most of the randomness, although the final infection on a lynch of the SS seems to work well when in. That then gives the SS an interesting day game of trying to get people who are untagged lynched, as well as extending things a bit by trying to keep both town and scum going long enough to get all the remaining players infected. Also means the town can do a lot more about the SS, since infected will flip infected on death and Guards can successfully block the infection attempts. Guardians won't be infected, and normal bodyguards don't expect to live to then end of the game anyway.

I think I will add in both varieties of SS in to the mix. As mutually exclusive options, of course.


So for the current game we have both SS types as options as well as the Rogue Dopp going in.

[Leafsnail]

I still don't like how the arsonist SS has a pretty much random chance of winning after they die (IE there are a bunch of people who can cause everyone else to lose but they don't know it).  That wouldn't be fun to deal with as the town or the mafia.

[webadict]

I still don't like how the arsonist SS has a pretty much random chance of winning after they die (IE there are a bunch of people who can cause everyone else to lose but they don't know it).  That wouldn't be fun to deal with as the town or the mafia.

I'm still agreeing with Leafsnail here, Meph. It just doesn't seem like a fun concept.

[Mephansteras]

It adds some uncertainty, yes, but I'm not convinced that it's necessarily unfun. After all, it gives more weight to some of the tech options. Tech shields get another level of viability, and being able to know where someone went or who was infected could be vital information.

Paranormal has a LOT of ways to know who did what. This just gives both town and dopps a reason to care about what an Alien did.

I think it can add some interesting interactions to the game.

But ultimately we'll have to see how it goes whenever it shows up in a game.

[Max White]

It is going to be interesting when the current game is nothing but spore spreaders, with everyone a slightly different type...

[Leafsnail]

Well either someone has a track result to the infectee or there's no way of knowing at all.  Neither scenario results in interesting scumhunting.

[webadict]

Well either someone has a track result to the infectee or there's no way of knowing at all.  Neither scenario results in interesting scumhunting.

In essence, the counterplay to the Spore Spreader is pretty low.

Let's compare this to the Telepath. The Telepath used to be incredibly broken, due to its near infallible results. This was an unfun mechanic, due to how powerful it was compared to other things. Similarly, the Agent used to have infallible results besides the Doppelganger Leader. Unfun. The roles themselves can be fun, but it creates a certain power dynamic in the game that makes the game less fun.

This is the way that the Spore Spreader is unfun, except that it takes it to a higher level. The Spore Spreader is more of a surprise element to the game, that passively influences it, since the Spores themselves don't do anything. And there's no way to stop it really, either. So, I guess I'm just lost. To me, it creates a negative mechanic. One that has limited counterplay, limited interaction, and limited use.

[Mephansteras]

Tech shield stops it, Guards of all sort stop it, PGO stops it, Sentry Guns stop it, Vig stops it in that he can either try to figure out who the SS is and kill him or kill people he thinks have been infected. Assassin bot does something similar. Dopps have the same set of tools, except of course they always have a kill.

And if you lynch the SS early enough, he's unlikely to win. Which means that trackers, Agent, Telepath, and the like all have a chance of identifying the SS. And an outed SS is going to be killed by the Dopps as a direct threat, so even if town doesn't have a kill the SS can be in trouble if they're not careful. And, of course, the Warden can block a suspected SS from doing anything.

You might be right, but I see a lot of potential interactions going on. A infecter SS would bring a different dynamic to any game that it is in. Yes, the Spores are passive, but the SS needs to be active at night, needs to pick good targets, and needs to be careful during the day game to both prolong the game and keep from being outed.

As soon as anyone who was infected dies (for whatever reason) people will know that there is a SS in the group and start looking for it. It's a different kind of Scumhunting, but it's there. You're just looking for different vote patterns.

[Leafsnail]

The problem isn't so much identifying the Spore Spreader - identifying and lynching a scum player is a legitimate part of a mafia game.  It's dealing with the infected players who aren't even aware that they're carriers.

[Mephansteras]

The problem isn't so much identifying the Spore Spreader - identifying and lynching a scum player is a legitimate part of a mafia game.  It's dealing with the infected players who aren't even aware that they're carriers.

Yeah, I get that. But...if even one player is uninfected when the game ends the infections don't matter at all. Trying to determine who the SS would have tagged becomes part of the game.  So, yes, it's possible that the SS dies and if the wrong people get killed off/lynched the game ends with a SS victory.  It's also possible that a Xenobiologist abduction, a PGO kill, and the Dopp Nightkill will all happen in such a way that the game goes from a near certain town win to a Dopp victory in a single night phase.

Paranormal is a game of Power roles, lots of them. It's the interactions of those power roles that makes it interesting, but it also means that sometimes a side is just going to win because they played smart or got lucky or both. The SS is just kinda like that. He can play well and pick good targets and get lucky because no one who COULD tag him did. And then win. Or he can get Nightkilled Night 1 and accomplish pretty much nothing unless the one person he infected before dying manages to be the sole survivor.

[Mephansteras]

Pondering the Mind Stealer. Current form is too powerful and too pro-town. Question is, how to fix it?

Backing up a bit, the main point of the Mind Stealer is to be an Abductor that removes people for a day but doesn't kill them. That part worked perfectly this last game, as people were left wondering if the abduction was Xeno, Harvester, Mind Stealer, or Exty with Combat Camo.

So the core aspect should remain. The Abductee should return alive.

Beyond that, I kind of like the feel of the role.

So my initial thought it to give it a more Alien win condition: Steal X number of Roles throughout the game. Depends a bit on the number of players, but probably between 3-5.

This puts the Mind Stealer at slightly anti-town, since stolen roles are more likely to be town than dopp based on statistics. Still not dopp friendly overall, though, since an abducted dopp is a bigger loss for the dopp team than an abducted townie is for town.

That removes the most powerful aspect, I think. Beyond removing the ability to basically choose your win condition it also removes any need to learn the faction of the player who was abducted.

We still have the question of the effects of the Mind Stealer. Does he in fact get the Role for the next day/night? Or does it just go away?

Is there any point in getting the role? Probably not, unless the Mind Stealer gets to both Abduct someone and use a role in the same night, since otherwise you're better off just abducting people since that's what lets you win. Letting the MS do both might be interesting, but could also end up too powerful.

What do you guys think?

[ToonyMan]

Make the number of abducts required 3 days if there's 2 anti-town, 4 days if there's 3 anti-town, and 5 days if there's 4 anti-town.  Not counting the Mind Stealer as one of the anti-town of course.

I would just have the role go away.  It'd be too powerful if it could use multiple roles at once.  Maybe have the mind steal behave differently if it hits dopp.

[ToonyMan]

And for extra fun if the Mind Stealer is killed/lynched have all the roles they stole randomly given to vanilla players.

[Mephansteras]

And for extra fun if the Mind Stealer is killed/lynched have all the roles they stole randomly given to vanilla players.

Hmm. Yeah, that could be fun.