Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

Keep it as is

3 (12%)

Change it to a full Jester, with game-end on win

1 (4%)

Change it to a full Jester, but without game-end on win

5 (20%)

Change it to a full Jester, with game-end on win AFTER day 3

3 (12%)

Change it to a Jester with the loss of the Next Day phase

4 (16%)

Remove it entirely

9 (36%)

Other (explain)

0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 25

[Mephansteras]

Considering that in 21 games an Exterminator has never won, I can't see any reason to make it harder on them.

The Deadman bomb needs more thought, I guess. It's never had this effect before, but it also made the game rather unsatisfactory for everyone.

The Psychic Pulser was actually chosen by Zombie Urist this game, but of course he didn't live to use it. I think it'd be interesting to have around, since it's a great tool late in the game. Suspect that the dopps have an Enchanter or Warden? Take them out for a night/day. Same for the dopps. Know that the town has a Warden that's the one chance they really have of ruining your plan? Blast all the Psychics for a night. Of course, like all one-shots it could also be wasted, but I don't know that it's actually weak.

Is it as powerful as the Body Double? No, it's not. But I've decided the body double is too powerful. It's like the Assassin Bot was: So powerful no one every really has a reason to take anything else. So I'm going to either nerf it or scrap it. It might end up as a Medium Alien Tech, since they're allowed to have more powerful goodies.

[Dariush]

Is it as powerful as the Body Double? No, it's not. But I've decided the body double is too powerful. It's like the Assassin Bot was: So powerful no one every really has a reason to take anything else. So I'm going to either nerf it or scrap it. It might end up as a Medium Alien Tech, since they're allowed to have more powerful goodies.

Actually, no. Body Double is exactly the right amount of powerful, since CES can't do anything else during the game after picking it and effectively flips after losing it, which is especially damaging to dopp CESes, ESPECIALLY if they flip after fakeclaiming. Moreover, if you nerf it too hard, CESes will simply switch to mindray and no alien with a medium tech slot will ever pick anything except the double. Maybe put up a poll about what do with pulser and EMP?

[Leafsnail]

I'd say it's ridiculously useful and a no-brainer for dopps - a lylo breaker, a personal shield or a wasted town lynch, all of which are great abilities and there's the added security of knowing you can't waste it.  For town it's not so amazing (you get the personal shield effect, but you can also waste a town lynch) but it remains the obvious choice because the other two tech options aren't very useful to town at all (Mind Control Ray's main use of lylo breaking isn't there for town, and Psychic Pulse is probably going to do way more harm than good).

So I'd say that the other cutting edge tech options should be made more useful for town: Mind Control Ray could perhaps have the possibility of making the player target themselves (so you can make dopps suicide), while Psychic Pulse could perhaps only affect people who are not on your team (hurts the dopps and also has a nice investigative effect if people's actions are missing).

[Dariush]

Mindray is also a LYLO-breaker, and in some ways even better than BD, since it works even if it's not the CES who is lynched. I've also explained how flipping after getting BD destroyed is extremely disadvantageous for the dopps.

[Leafsnail]

It's not hard to get yourself lynched at lylo.  Just make a mistake in your rolename or claim an action that doesn't make sense and everyone will be all over you.  The disadvantage of the Mind Ray is that it's completely wasted if you get killed (not that it's a huge disadvantage - it's still a great item for scum, just not as good as the BD), while the BD comes in handy almost every time.  I'm not sure what you mean about the flipping thing.  If you don't have a BD then you die when you are killed and flip, and are also removed from the game anyway.  "Not dying and not roleflipping" is a clear advantage over that.

It would be interesting if psychic pulse and mind control ray became better options for town - then the disadvantage of taking a BD as a dopp would be that you'd have to either lie about your role (because both other choices are highly visible) or bullshit about why you choose the anti-town one.

[Dariush]

What I mean by flipping is that if a dopp CES fakeclaims and then somehow dies, he'll get immediatly lynched again. Also, what's the point of intentionally getting yourself lynched, even with a BD?

[Leafsnail]

What I mean by flipping is that if a dopp CES fakeclaims and then somehow dies, he'll get immediatly lynched again.

Yes, wasting a town lynch and therefore essentially giving the dopps an extra kill.  If the dopp didn't have a BD then he'd just die and not waste that lynch.

Also, what's the point of intentionally getting yourself lynched, even with a BD?

If it's actually pre-lylo and you're trying to shield another dopp who has an assassin bot or something.  But you're right: you don't need to get lynched as a BD in order to break lylo.  Even if town lynches your buddies they'll eventually be down to 3p and you'll win.

[Mephansteras]

Been thinking about things.

I've decided that I'm going to leave the Deadman Bomb as it is for now. I'm not that happy with it, but I haven't come up with a solution that really fixes it in a satisfactory manner. And this is the first time in 21 games that it's really had a huge effect like this, so I don't think it's a critical issue at the moment.

The Body Double needs to go or be nerfed. I'm leaning towards either the Stasis Field idea or making it just protect against Lynches.

For the Spore Spreader, I think I've found a way to improve things. Instead of only infecting Humans, they'll now be able to infect anyone. But those players will no longer become spore spreaders, they just carry the spores. All the SS needs is for either it to survive to the end, or for at lest 1 player carrying spores to live to the end. Much more of an actual Jester this way.

So...when Lynched the Spore Spreader will randomly infect 4 other players. It will not be known who is infected. As long as one of those people survives to the end, the SS wins. If NK'd, the SS will infect whoever killed them as long as it wasn't a tech kill of some sort (Like the Plasma Bomb).


New Alien idea: Harvester. This alien will come in several flavors. All of them will involve Abducting a player for the night. An Abducted Player will be gone for the Night, as well as the next Day and Night. They will be found, in whatever state, at the start of the Second day. What happens to them while abducted depends on the type of Harvester.
    Organ Harveter - The Abducted player is killed. The Harvester acts as a Doom Speaker, and is building an Abomination. After some # of nights (based on player count) the Abomination is released and performs a Night Kill attempt on every player.
   Mind Stealer - Copies the Role from the Abducted player for the following day/night as well as the Win Condition of that player for the next Day and Night. If the Mind Stealer doesn't have any other goal, then it is a Survivor.
   Tech Thief - Needs to steal X amount of tech. Like the Xenozoologist, but tech based rather than Player type based.

Thoughts?

[ToonyMan]

That does make it feel like the SS will have a very hard time not losing if he can act as a survivor and being lynched even half way through the game will pretty much guarantee victory.

I like the Harvester especially the Organ Harvester because massacres are fun.

[Bookthras]

Thoughts?

A few:

I've decided that I'm going to leave the Deadman Bomb as it is for now. I'm not that happy with it, but I haven't come up with a solution that really fixes it in a satisfactory manner.

All right, but how about the questions regarding the replicator? (shouldn't its use be a free action? can duplicated items be created? what happens if it's used to make two bombs?)

For the Spore Spreader, I think I've found a way to improve things. Instead of only infecting Humans, they'll now be able to infect anyone. But those players will no longer become spore spreaders, they just carry the spores. All the SS needs is for either it to survive to the end, or for at lest 1 player carrying spores to live to the end. Much more of an actual Jester this way.

Those infected players would not be able to spread spores themselves if lynched/killed, right?

If so, then it removes the multiple-generations thing that was a plus with the SS... as Toony said, rather than a jester, the SS in this form has an incentive to make it to D2/D3, and then get lynched, as he'd be practically guaranteed victory then. It would work, if this is how you want it played.

New Alien idea: Harvester.

I like the Organ Harvester a lot. The other two, not so much.

The tech one sounds really random; would he want only alien tech (too little) or human tech as well? He also would need to hit people fast, before bots/modulators/scanners/shields and the like are used up... Would a medium-size tech (like bot) be worth more to him than a small size one like shield? Would the abductee lose all their tech when abducted? Can he use the tech?

The mind stealer sounds off... he'd need to abduct N1 to gain a role, use the role N2, abduct again N3, use the new role N4... his win condition would change every time, hard to make a consistent strategy. What if he abducts a dopp? Can he dopkill? Would he get tech?

[Mephansteras]

A few:

I've decided that I'm going to leave the Deadman Bomb as it is for now. I'm not that happy with it, but I haven't come up with a solution that really fixes it in a satisfactory manner.

All right, but how about the questions regarding the replicator? (shouldn't its use be a free action? can duplicated items be created? what happens if it's used to make two bombs?)

The replicator is a free action, but only at night (The Alien needs to be at it's ship). Duplicate Items can be created. A double-deadman bomb would hit two targets twice (so a single player could be hit twice).

For the Spore Spreader, I think I've found a way to improve things. Instead of only infecting Humans, they'll now be able to infect anyone. But those players will no longer become spore spreaders, they just carry the spores. All the SS needs is for either it to survive to the end, or for at lest 1 player carrying spores to live to the end. Much more of an actual Jester this way.

Those infected players would not be able to spread spores themselves if lynched/killed, right?

If so, then it removes the multiple-generations thing that was a plus with the SS... as Toony said, rather than a jester, the SS in this form has an incentive to make it to D2/D3, and then get lynched, as he'd be practically guaranteed victory then. It would work, if this is how you want it played.

Yeah, people with spores don't spread them themselves. The idea is a risk/reward model for the SS. They have to survive for a few days before they get a really good chance to win if they get lynched. With all the potential kills floating around a Paranormal, that's a bit of a risk, so getting lynched early could be a good thing. Might need to tweak the # of people who get hit with spores, though, to make it balanced.

New Alien idea: Harvester.

I like the Organ Harvester a lot. The other two, not so much.

The tech one sounds really random; would he want only alien tech (too little) or human tech as well? He also would need to hit people fast, before bots/modulators/scanners/shields and the like are used up... Would a medium-size tech (like bot) be worth more to him than a small size one like shield? Would the abductee lose all their tech when abducted? Can he use the tech?

The idea for this one is that the Tech Thief is trying to get as much technology as possible regardless of type. Higher level tech is worth more (say, Small = 1, Medium/Human = 2, Large = 4) with the Thief trying to get X worth of tech. And, yes, he would steal all of the tech. And he can use it, although if it gets used up that reduces his score so he'd need to steal even more. Might need to have him start with 2 Scanners or something.

The mind stealer sounds off... he'd need to abduct N1 to gain a role, use the role N2, abduct again N3, use the new role N4... his win condition would change every time, hard to make a consistent strategy. What if he abducts a dopp? Can he dopkill? Would he get tech?

Hmm...the strategy issue is valid. Maybe have him keep whatever Win Condition he had last, so the player can decide to stop Abducting becuse he thinks his current Goal is going to be fufilled?

Not sure if they Harvesters need Tech or not. I'm thinking no, except for the Tech Thief (amusingly).

[Jim Groovester]

Four people is pretty good odds, but I don't like it being random. If the Spore Spreader gets lynched like he's supposed to, there's still a chance he could lose and it would be completely out of his control. That's not exactly the best reward for playing a proper jester and playing it well.

Also, as ToonyMan mentions, it's incredibly friendly for him to be able to be win if he gets lynched, killed, or lives to the end of the game.

I feel like you should just make him a straight up jester and be done with it.

New Alien idea: Harvester. This alien will come in several flavors. All of them will involve Abducting a player for the night. An Abducted Player will be gone for the Night, as well as the next Day and Night. They will be found, in whatever state, at the start of the Second day. What happens to them while abducted depends on the type of Harvester.
    Organ Harveter - The Abducted player is killed. The Harvester acts as a Doom Speaker, and is building an Abomination. After some # of nights (based on player count) the Abomination is released and performs a Night Kill attempt on every player.
   Mind Stealer - Copies the Role from the Abducted player for the following day/night as well as the Win Condition of that player for the next Day and Night. If the Mind Stealer doesn't have any other goal, then it is a Survivor.
   Tech Thief - Needs to steal X amount of tech. Like the Xenozoologist, but tech based rather than Player type based.

Thoughts?

Tech Thief is boring. Pretty much everyone, with the possible exception of the Exterminator since he's the most reliant on tech, would have no significant reason to care that a Tech Thief was in the game, aside from the abductions themselves. This makes him a nuisance. Nobody wants to play a game where they're just a nuisance.

Mind Stealer is weird. He's basically a super survivor. He has no incentive to honor the win condition he receives if the game isn't about to end, and if the game is about to end, then he'll pick the win condition of the team who's about to do it. I guess it could make for some interesting situations where he has to pick and choose who he thinks is about to win, but otherwise, I don't quite see the value of the role.

Organ Harvester's pretty neato. But can he abduct a player every single night? If he can do it every night, then he's basically an awesome SK, who gets to have roleflips from kills delayed and has a chance to kill everybody at some point.

[Leafsnail]

I'm not sure I like the DMB and Spore Spreader ideas.  If the DMB really can't be fixed to not randomly screw people over then it should go (and replaced with something similar but directional), while the new Spore Spreader seems to have something of a coin toss win condition (placing fewer spores on chosen people could be better).

Organ Harvester should be ok since if he does kill he's working against his doomspeaker aspect.  The delayed flip and the doomspeaker ability probably make him about equivalent to the teched up Exterminator.

Another problem with the Mind Stealer I'm seeing: he can just pm whoever he just copied and come up with a plan with them to win.  If he copies an Agent or something the dopps are screwed, while copying a dopp would leave the town at lylo really early.

[Dariush]

I've decided that I'm going to leave the Deadman Bomb as it is for now. I'm not that happy with it, but I haven't come up with a solution that really fixes it in a satisfactory manner. And this is the first time in 21 games that it's really had a huge effect like this, so I don't think it's a critical issue at the moment.

Awwwwwwww. Why didn't you like any of mine or Jim's ideas? There's already been precedent. It doesn't matter that it happened so late. A game-breaker is a game-breaker regardless of when it was discovered.

The Body Double needs to go or be nerfed. I'm leaning towards either the Stasis Field idea or making it just protect against Lynches.

Awwwwwwww. Maybe make it activa...ble, but only able to last through one night and one day (or maybe the other way around)?

For the Spore Spreader, I think I've found a way to improve things. Instead of only infecting Humans, they'll now be able to infect anyone. But those players will no longer become spore spreaders, they just carry the spores. All the SS needs is for either it to survive to the end, or for at lest 1 player carrying spores to live to the end. Much more of an actual Jester this way.

So...when Lynched the Spore Spreader will randomly infect 4 other players. It will not be known who is infected. As long as one of those people survives to the end, the SS wins. If NK'd, the SS will infect whoever killed them as long as it wasn't a tech kill of some sort (Like the Plasma Bomb).

FOUR PEOPLE? That's just plain ridiculous. All the SS needs is to survive two days (since it'll net at least four deaths) and get an almost guaranteed win. With this idea he becomes a survivor who simply can't lose. I'd say decrease the number of people to two (or maybe one) and cut out the survivor wincon.

New Alien idea: Harvester. This alien will come in several flavors. All of them will involve Abducting a player for the night. An Abducted Player will be gone for the Night, as well as the next Day and Night. They will be found, in whatever state, at the start of the Second day. What happens to them while abducted depends on the type of Harvester.
    Organ Harveter - The Abducted player is killed. The Harvester acts as a Doom Speaker, and is building an Abomination. After some # of nights (based on player count) the Abomination is released and performs a Night Kill attempt on every player.
   Mind Stealer - Copies the Role from the Abducted player for the following day/night as well as the Win Condition of that player for the next Day and Night. If the Mind Stealer doesn't have any other goal, then it is a Survivor.
   Tech Thief - Needs to steal X amount of tech. Like the Xenozoologist, but tech based rather than Player type based.

FUCK YES. Except Tech Thief kinda sucks, as mentioned before. Also, I don't really see OH as using the abduction mechanic. It's basically a delayed NK. So basically, he's a techless exterminator. Also, I think make Mind Stealer abduct a player for a day and a night and then release him, making him either a voteless vanilla of whichever race he is or a simple vanilla (in addition stripping the dopp of a NK ability). He wins after stealing a certain number of minds.

BTW, what about replacing Psychic Pulser and EMP? Did you reach a decision?

[Mephansteras]

Ok, been pondering things some more in preparation for the next game (which will go into sign-ups today).

Tech changes:
   Deadman Bomb becomes Hold-out Blaster: If the Alien is lynched, he pulls out the blaster and gets to shoot a single target before dying. If he is night-killed, he gets a shot off on his attacker (although he still suffers the effect of the attack). This is a one-shot item.

  Body Double gets a nerf: A perfect body double. It could be organic, robotic, even a hologram. Regardless, it takes his place in dangerous situations while he stays safe. This allows him to escape a Lynch by having the body double destroyed in his place during the day. It's a one-use item, though, so he's vulnerable after it's been destroyed.

  Mind Control Ray[/b] loses the restriction on the MC'd action's target: Once per game the MS can use the Mind Control Ray to choose another player's target for the night. If the player does not have a night action (and is not the dopp chosen for the night kill), or if the player has a limited-use night ability and chose not to use it, then no action occurs. The Ray also allows the Scientist to control that player's vote during the next day and may change it as often as he wishes. Its effect is fairly obvious, however.


Role Changes:
  Spore Spreader becomes a standard Jester: This alien organism has been engineered to spread by spores and prepare earth for a take-over by depopulating the planet. The only thing is that the host has to die for the spores to spread. Whenever the Spore Spreader is about to be lynched it will prepare itself for the spores to be relesed and then spred them upon death. This catastrophy will kill all other players in the game, preventing any other win-cons from being fulfiled (except for an Exterminator)
    Victory: The Spore Spreader must be lynched.

New Role:
Harvester
    Race: Alien
    Goal: Kill/Find
    Rules: The Harvester is collecting things for its own purposes. There are three different types of Harvesters
      Organ Harvester - The Abducted player is killed. The Harvester acts as a Doom Speaker, and is building an Abomination from the parts of those killed. After some # of kills (based on player count) the Abomination is released and performs a Night Kill attempt on every player.
      Mind Stealer - Copies the Role from the Abducted player for the following day/night as well as the Win Condition of that player until a new one is acquired. The abducted player reverts to a vanilla role for the rest of the game(Aliens will all become survivors). If the Mind Stealer doesn't have any other goal, then it is a Survivor.
      Tech Thief - Needs to steal X amount of tech. Like the Xenozoologist, but tech based rather than Player type based.
    Tech: 1 Medium Slot (Tech Thief only)
    Victory: The Hivemind wins when all opposing groups are dead and the town has no way of stopping them (Vig, War Vet, etc)


Still pondering the Tech Thief to decide if it's worth putting in, or what changes would make it more interesting.