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Total Members Voted: 25

[Zathras]

So, Paranormal 17 just finished. I have some questions, hypothetical situations and thoughts for future ones (may there be many):

1. What's with the mind shields/antitech fields? Rules imply that any character, of any race/role who is not psychic (warden, telepath, medium, enchanter, yes?) may get one. Is it one only, or independent chance? Can he randomly get both? In P17's mass claim, only Leafsnail claimed a Mind shield, in general, why wouldn't the exterminator also claim one as a randomly given ability every time, along with his (non-psychic) fakeclaim, as long as he didn't have an advanced one? (In particular, Toaster, why didn't you? It wouldn't have fingered you as the Ext, and the claim would have let you go after Kamina instead of me.)

2. Tech: I've not played as Exterminator team; does the Ext know if he has an Op before he has to finalise his tech choices? If he does have an Op, why wouldn't he always ask the Op to get an anti-tech shield, and give it to him? That'd make him immune to most special attacks, and at least one would be safe to claim.

3. Meph hinted that, although at the moment a detective gets "Agent Operative" and "Exterminator Operative" as roles for those who have them, in the future he may just get "Operative"; it makes things harder for the detective. On the other hand, the scanner tech would continue to get the full result, yes? This would be compatible with how it gets now both race and role in other cases. Also, the Ext knows who his Op is, yes? But does the Agent? Or only if he's not Dopp, or never?

4. A question left unanswered in the thread: does the Exterminator team win condition mandate that any Alien Survivors be dead, or can a situation of 2 townies vs. Ext-Op+Survivor result in an alien win? How about 1 townie vs. 1 survivor vs. 1 no-kill-left Ext-Op? Who wins?

5. Meph hinted, after the "chains flavour" debacle, that "it gave him an idea" for an alien tech. First: please don't, the poor warden's life is tough as it is; but second, if you must, shouldn't it be incorporated into the Combat Camo functionality?

6. Speaking of Camo, this was touched in scumchat: if the Ext targets his standard NK on someone with anti-tech field, then the camo would fail to mask the kill, yes? And finally, just to confirm what was said in P17, if camo was taken, it could mask kills made by both Ext and Op, whether standard NK or tech, all in the same night, right? And the camo-user can select at the time whether to mask his kill or not, yes?

7. While I understand the rationale behind the new "morning-kill" assassin bots, now that I've seen them in action I have to say I liked them better before. Sure, game balance is not my strong point, but day kills were way more dramatic before, increased tension substantially (a good thing), and as Leafsnail pointed out, they were a way for an Exty to keep a Survivor in line following orders. I really missed the "IN YO' FACE" factor of older games I've read.

8. Tech vs. Psychic: a psychic doesn't leave his home to do his thing, so he's safe from sentry guns/PWVs/guards; tech is remote as well, and likewise safe, yes? sentry guns/PWVs/guards don't prevent bot kills, stun orbs, scanners, and so on, do they? What is the difference with regards to night action claims? Is it that the tech user leaves his home (but doesn't enter the target's), and therefore can be seen by a reporter? Any other difference?

9. Tech and Agents: The Ext and Ext-Op can share tech, but this is not the case for the Agent and Agent-Op, right? Only the Agent-Op gets tech, the Agent gets none beyond his investigative power, no tech. I read wuba's musings on deadchat about whether the Agent-Op gets too much tech at the moment or not; I don't recall Agent-Op details from older games, but I have to say I like this incarnation; his tech being available gives it a convincing impression that he's the Ext-Op (and indeed I'd have tried to lynch Dariush for it had the game gone on). Again, balance is not really my thing, so I don't know how much tech they should get, but I think it's good that they do.



Whew... quite a few. As I said earlier, these games are excruciatingly complicated, but also (and because of it) soooo much fun! Oh well, food for thought. Your opinions are welcome. More if I think of them.

Looking forward to the next one.

[Mr.Person]

Just a small thing, but Detectives should get "Townsperson" instead of "No role". All "No role" does is trick newbies who haven't read and memorized the rules top to bottom. Everything that gives "No role" should of course give "Townperson" instead.

I'm willing to be Meph is already doing this, but all the Operatives should have
"Visible Role: Operative"
I love how Meph tricked us into readding the old "Agent Seeker". Hehe.

The Bodyguard role in the master role list still mentions "one of three varients" when there's four varients now. Additionally, I recommend adding a fifth varient that's psychic. Still dies defending the player, but isn't killed by war vets and turrets and whatnot. I dunno how to flavor this exactly, but gameplay wise it'd be a good addition.

I'm actually inclined to agree with Web. Agent Ops should probably only get 1 small, 1 medium tech or maybe even 2 small tech or just 1 medium.  A smaller number of techs creates a dilemma of "do I take the Scanner or what?" rather than the large amount of tech now which just says "do everything!". Of all the aliens, they're the ones who most wants to have Intel. On that note, Intel really should be Medium tech. Yes, it'd be a little strong for a Med tech, but I don't think it would be overpoweredly so. Xenoxoologists might actually want it, and if an Exterminator wants to grab a replicator and wait to get the Intel, so be it. I'm also of the opinion that most of the current large techs are on the weak side, so I'd gladly be willing to buff them up a smidge.

Role idea:
Diviner (Name sucks, but Telepath is already taken and Mind Reader and Detector sound stupid)
Race: Human or Dopp
Goal: Find
This psychic player is able to detect if other players are radiating psychic energy as only psychic beings do. Each night, he or she can figure out of another player is psychic or not. Enchanters, Diviners, Telepaths, Wardens, and psychic-using Hiveminds are all psychic.
(You would think this would make Hiveminds always take psychic, but you gotta remember that the anti-tech techs are much worse compared to the anti-psychic techs. Additionally, I would recommend adding an anti-tech psychic role of some sort. Alternatively, make all Hiveminds psychic, but I kind of want the decision to actually matter somehow, and this is a first step.)


Advanced Holoform is laughably useless. It's effective vs two things, Reporters and Snooper Bots. That's.... not very useful, to be honest.Maybe the problem is with regular Holoforms already being too good? Maybe regular Holoform Modulators should only let you hide your role while Adv. Holoform Modulators lets you hide everything else? Problem is, I don't think Holoforms really need to be nerfed. The regular Modulator is already fairly balanced, so I really do think the problem is with Adv. Holoforms. Hmm... Maybe there's no problem at all and everything's just in my head? I would only consider taking an Adv. Holoform if it protected me from attack or something, but I don't think that's a good route to go down.

Ok, here's an idea. What if we say that techs and psychics can "see-through" a regular Holoform Modulator but not an Adv. one? This would mean Snooper Bots and Surveillance Systems will skip the Holoform and track the player but an Advanced one is so realistic they'll miss the actual player entirely and only track the Holoform. Additionally, I think Adv. Holoform Modulator should also mask the player's Goal for Telepaths. Finally, if a player with a regular Mind Shield or Anti-Tech Shield uses an Adv. Holoform Modulator, for that one night only, the shield acts like the Advanced version. If the player lacks one or both shields, he or she has it/them for the night the Adv. Holoform is used. Does this sounds good?

[Toaster]

Zath:  Scanner already sees through role-masking effects like Dopp Leader and Kook, so I imagine that it'd get the full type of operative.

It's stated somewhere that Survivor does block the Exty wincon.

(Also re P17: I didn't claim it because I figured it'd draw attention to me as a possible exty.  I was really only suspected of being it via process of elimination at that point.)


Here's my thoughts on tech, gathered from both me pondering what to take and seeing things in action:


Stun Bomb:  If it takes the Alien's action for the night, it seems kind of useless.  It may not affect the user, but anyone using it can't do anything else.  I always pictured it as a great choice for the Xenozoologist, who can get one free night to ply his trade.  If you want to keep it as using up the action, I suggest one change: allow the user to selectively exclude people from its effects, possibly with a cap of one exclusion.  That'd make it a good choice for both operatives, allowing either a free kill or free inspection.

Holoform modulator:  I'd just like a clarification on this one: do you have to specify the night it's used, or is it more like something you set ahead of time and it triggers when needed?  If the former, perhaps the advanced form could act as the latter, increasing its power versus the basic version.

[Mr.Person]

Then again, Dopps investigated by a Detective would show up as "Townsperson", which may not be ideal. Hmm... Maybe the fact that vanilla Townspeople and vanilla Dopps will show up as "No role" should be stated in the Detective role PM? Yeah, I like that.

Stun Bomb: Hmm... I have an idea. Make it so the Stun Bomb doesn't use up the player's night action but also make it so the Stun Bomb user will also get stunned... unless he or she has an Anti-Tech Shield or Mind Shield. Flavor the thing as a powerful ESP blast, I dunno. Or just make the only defense an Anti-Tech Shield, I don't really care. If the Alien really cares, he or she is free to buy a Stun Bomb and a Mind Shield or just start with a Mind Shield if it's the Extie. It's a lot of hoops to jump through, I guess, but even unshielded I can see an Agent Op taking a Stun Bomb to give the town an extra lynch.

Holoform Modulator: It triggers when a player inspects you. You then get to pick a race-role combo to appear as for that night. It used to be "Activate whenever w/o a trigger", but nobody used it since it would pretty much never be effective due to the very high number of players and fairly low number of inspections out and about.

I'd scrap the Adv. Holoform Modulator and add a Large tech "Permanent Holoform Modulator". I think you can see where this is going. If you do keep the Adv. Holoform, at the very least make it so even Scanners get fooled by Adv. Holoforms.

[Mephansteras]

So, Paranormal 17 just finished. I have some questions, hypothetical situations and thoughts for future ones (may there be many):

1. What's with the mind shields/antitech fields? Rules imply that any character, of any race/role who is not psychic (warden, telepath, medium, enchanter, yes?) may get one. Is it one only, or independent chance? Can he randomly get both? In P17's mass claim, only Leafsnail claimed a Mind shield, in general, why wouldn't the exterminator also claim one as a randomly given ability every time, along with his (non-psychic) fakeclaim, as long as he didn't have an advanced one? (In particular, Toaster, why didn't you? It wouldn't have fingered you as the Ext, and the claim would have let you go after Kamina instead of me.)

Anyone can randomly have either a mind shield, anti-tech field, or Kook.

2. Tech: I've not played as Exterminator team; does the Ext know if he has an Op before he has to finalise his tech choices? If he does have an Op, why wouldn't he always ask the Op to get an anti-tech shield, and give it to him? That'd make him immune to most special attacks, and at least one would be safe to claim.

Yes, if there is an Exterminator Operative he could do that. Of course, considering that an Exterminator team has never won, I'm not too concerned about it being overpowered.

3. Meph hinted that, although at the moment a detective gets "Agent Operative" and "Exterminator Operative" as roles for those who have them, in the future he may just get "Operative"; it makes things harder for the detective. On the other hand, the scanner tech would continue to get the full result, yes? This would be compatible with how it gets now both race and role in other cases. Also, the Ext knows who his Op is, yes? But does the Agent? Or only if he's not Dopp, or never?

Exterminator and Operative act as a team. They get their Role PMs together and they have a quickchat.

Agent and Agent Operative are on the same side, but they're not a specific team. Nor does the Agent know about the Operative, although the Operative gets the Agent's name as part of their Night 1 action results.

The Scanner gets full results, yes, since it's a one-shot tech item. Of course, it won't work properly against an Anti-Tech field.

4. A question left unanswered in the thread: does the Exterminator team win condition mandate that any Alien Survivors be dead, or can a situation of 2 townies vs. Ext-Op+Survivor result in an alien win? How about 1 townie vs. 1 survivor vs. 1 no-kill-left Ext-Op? Who wins?

Exterminator team has to kill everyone. So a Survivor is ALWAYS anti-exterminator team. In that last scenario, the town would still have to lynch someone that day.

5. Meph hinted, after the "chains flavour" debacle, that "it gave him an idea" for an alien tech. First: please don't, the poor warden's life is tough as it is; but second, if you must, shouldn't it be incorporated into the Combat Camo functionality?

Hehe. I was just being evil. But, yes, if that were to exist it'd probably be either a combo of Combat Camo & Stun orb or it'd be a larger tech version of the stun orb.

6. Speaking of Camo, this was touched in scumchat: if the Ext targets his standard NK on someone with anti-tech field, then the camo would fail to mask the kill, yes? And finally, just to confirm what was said in P17, if camo was taken, it could mask kills made by both Ext and Op, whether standard NK or tech, all in the same night, right? And the camo-user can select at the time whether to mask his kill or not, yes?

Yes.

7. While I understand the rationale behind the new "morning-kill" assassin bots, now that I've seen them in action I have to say I liked them better before. Sure, game balance is not my strong point, but day kills were way more dramatic before, increased tension substantially (a good thing), and as Leafsnail pointed out, they were a way for an Exty to keep a Survivor in line following orders. I really missed the "IN YO' FACE" factor of older games I've read.

I like it better too, but it's just WAY more powerful as a day-kill. Too powerful for a Mad Scientist tech, at least. I might make the Alien version stronger, though.

As it is, I still have to rework the Military Scientist a bit. No one ever takes Sentry Guns, which shows how unbalanced it is.

8. Tech vs. Psychic: a psychic doesn't leave his home to do his thing, so he's safe from sentry guns/PWVs/guards; tech is remote as well, and likewise safe, yes? sentry guns/PWVs/guards don't prevent bot kills, stun orbs, scanners, and so on, do they? What is the difference with regards to night action claims? Is it that the tech user leaves his home (but doesn't enter the target's), and therefore can be seen by a reporter? Any other difference?

Depends on the tech. Most Mad Scientist tech is pretty passive or remote. Alien Tech is a lot more varied. Some requires going to the target, some doesn't. Really, the main difference between tech and psychic right now is that tech tends to be more varied and has 1-shot powers.

9. Tech and Agents: The Ext and Ext-Op can share tech, but this is not the case for the Agent and Agent-Op, right? Only the Agent-Op gets tech, the Agent gets none beyond his investigative power, no tech. I read wuba's musings on deadchat about whether the Agent-Op gets too much tech at the moment or not; I don't recall Agent-Op details from older games, but I have to say I like this incarnation; his tech being available gives it a convincing impression that he's the Ext-Op (and indeed I'd have tried to lynch Dariush for it had the game gone on). Again, balance is not really my thing, so I don't know how much tech they should get, but I think it's good that they do.

Actually, there isn't any reason an Agent Operative couldn't share tech with the Agent once he makes contact.

As for him getting too much tech, maybe. But it's a pretty expensive role, and i like the options the tech gives him. So I think I'd prefer to just adjust the weight instead of limit his tech.

[RedWarrior0]

Perhaps the daykill bot needs some mitigation. How about: as scum, it doesn't work when it would end the game or when the game would end that night if used. When it does work, a random person of the user's alignment is blocked because of some kind of collateral damage. The user does not know who is blocked. For an otherwise all-vanilla scumteam, the assassin would mean giving up the nightkill for the dramatic effect. For the town, a valuable role could get blocked, and there would be no chance of it knocking out a random townie.

[Leafsnail]

It occurs to me that Sentry Guns would be great IF you can reliably draw a kill.

[Mephansteras]

It occurs to me that Sentry Guns would be great IF you can reliably draw a kill.

What do you mean?

[Leafsnail]

I mean, as in, if you're such a good player that you're sure you can get the dopps to kill you on night one.

[Mephansteras]

You could always pull an Org

[Zathras]

Thanks Meph for the answers. A couple of follow ups, if I may:

1. What's with the mind shields/antitech fields? Rules imply that any character, of any race/role who is not psychic (warden, telepath, medium, enchanter, yes?) may get one. Is it one only, or independent chance? Can he randomly get both?

Anyone can randomly have either a mind shield, anti-tech field, or Kook.

I read that as meaning that a Kook can never have a natural mindshield or techfield, right?

The Scanner gets full results, yes, since it's a one-shot tech item. Of course, it won't work properly against an Anti-Tech field.

If I have an advanced anti-tech field, and am targeted by a scanner, they should get a misleading result and use up the item, yes? Would they get "no role", or would I get the chance of saying what would be reported (as with a holoform modulator) or something else?

4. [...]How about 1 townie vs. 1 survivor vs. 1 no-kill-left Ext-Op? Who wins?

In that last scenario, the town would still have to lynch someone that day.

Let's take it further and say they lynch the survivor, and neither the townie nor the Op have any kills or tech left; it's just 1 vs. 1, without a way to kill each other. Who wins?

Since we're on the topic, different scenario: two townies vs. the Exterminator. The townies have found him out and vote to lynch him, but he has a Deadman Bomb. He is lynched, but the bomb takes out both townies. Scorched Earth! Who wins?

7. While I understand the rationale behind the new "morning-kill" assassin bots, now that I've seen them in action I have to say I liked them better before. Sure, game balance is not my strong point, but day kills were way more dramatic before, increased tension substantially (a good thing), and as Leafsnail pointed out, they were a way for an Exty to keep a Survivor in line following orders. I really missed the "IN YO' FACE" factor of older games I've read.

I like it better too, but it's just WAY more powerful as a day-kill. Too powerful for a Mad Scientist tech, at least. I might make the Alien version stronger, though.
As it is, I still have to rework the Military Scientist a bit. No one ever takes Sentry Guns, which shows how unbalanced it is.

Yeah, or keep them as is, but add an old-style daykilling bot as a Large Tech item, or something. I like daykills. Also, the sentry guns or EMP pulse would perhaps be more popular if they were not one-shot; if unlimited use is too much, at least two-shot would beef them up substantially, I think.

While on the subject, I agree with others that have said: a) the Advanced Holoform Modulator is kind of weak as a medium tech, it would be better as a "Permanent Holoform Modulator" or as small tech or something else; and b) the Stun Bomb would be more useful if it didn't use up the Alien's night action, and/or if it could selectively stun some people but not others. Question on that: are people with Anti-Tech fields stunned by the stun bomb? The current description doesn't qualify, it just says "the entire town".

I also think the replicator would be cooler if it had a bigger fuel tank, being able to make three small tech items, or one medium and one small, but I don't know about balance; I just think more tech means more fun. 8-)

Agent and Agent Operative are on the same side, but they're not a specific team. [...] Actually, there isn't any reason an Agent Operative couldn't share tech with the Agent once he makes contact.

I find this surprising, and good for town; once the Op is sure the Agent is not a dopp, they can become quite powerful if they can share the tech. He could take two Personal Shields as his two small tech choices, and give one to the Agent, for example. Good stuff.

More in general, since Agent/Agent-Op aren't a specific team, can an Agent Op share tech with someone else? Say he scans his Agent and finds he's a dopp, but there's someone else who is a confirmed townie for whatever reason; could the Agent Op give that townie a Personal Shield?

[Toaster]

If you're going to do that, why not just let any alien share any tech? That could open up several interesting possibilities.  The Hivemind normally wouldn't want to take any action-using items, but he could give it to his first convert, letting him be his own personal operative.  Perhaps possibilities of cutting deals could open up with exchanging tech for support on a lynch, or NK protection, or covering a lie for someone else.

On that note, does a Hivemind convert lose any powers he had?

[Leafsnail]

Let's take it further and say they lynch the survivor, and neither the townie nor the Op have any kills or tech left; it's just 1 vs. 1, without a way to kill each other. Who wins?

According to the letter of the law, the Exterminator side loses, as not all non exterminator players are dead.  Then again, the town also loses.

Since we're on the topic, different scenario: two townies vs. the Exterminator. The townies have found him out and vote to lynch him, but he has a Deadman Bomb. He is lynched, but the bomb takes out both townies. Scorched Earth! Who wins?

According to the letter, the Exterminator.  His wincon doesn't seem to require his own survival.

[Mephansteras]

Stun Bomb:  If it takes the Alien's action for the night, it seems kind of useless.  It may not affect the user, but anyone using it can't do anything else.  I always pictured it as a great choice for the Xenozoologist, who can get one free night to ply his trade.  If you want to keep it as using up the action, I suggest one change: allow the user to selectively exclude people from its effects, possibly with a cap of one exclusion.  That'd make it a good choice for both operatives, allowing either a free kill or free inspection.

Good point. It was originally made for the Watcher, who didn't do anything at night anyway. Might need to tweak it a bit.

Holoform modulator:  I'd just like a clarification on this one: do you have to specify the night it's used, or is it more like something you set ahead of time and it triggers when needed?  If the former, perhaps the advanced form could act as the latter, increasing its power versus the basic version.

I'd scrap the Adv. Holoform Modulator and add a Large tech "Permanent Holoform Modulator". I think you can see where this is going. If you do keep the Adv. Holoform, at the very least make it so even Scanners get fooled by Adv. Holoforms.

Yeah, it is currently an as-needed item. I probably won't change the normal one. Making the Advanced one trick EVERYONE is probably a good idea. Might also add in a Permanant Holoform as well. Which is just the basic one that never goes away.

Thanks Meph for the answers. A couple of follow ups, if I may:

1. What's with the mind shields/antitech fields? Rules imply that any character, of any race/role who is not psychic (warden, telepath, medium, enchanter, yes?) may get one. Is it one only, or independent chance? Can he randomly get both?

Anyone can randomly have either a mind shield, anti-tech field, or Kook.

I read that as meaning that a Kook can never have a natural mindshield or techfield, right?

Correct.

The Scanner gets full results, yes, since it's a one-shot tech item. Of course, it won't work properly against an Anti-Tech field.

If I have an advanced anti-tech field, and am targeted by a scanner, they should get a misleading result and use up the item, yes? Would they get "no role", or would I get the chance of saying what would be reported (as with a holoform modulator) or something else?

  They would get a generic townsperson result.

4. [...]How about 1 townie vs. 1 survivor vs. 1 no-kill-left Ext-Op? Who wins?

In that last scenario, the town would still have to lynch someone that day.

Let's take it further and say they lynch the survivor, and neither the townie nor the Op have any kills or tech left; it's just 1 vs. 1, without a way to kill each other. Who wins?

Since we're on the topic, different scenario: two townies vs. the Exterminator. The townies have found him out and vote to lynch him, but he has a Deadman Bomb. He is lynched, but the bomb takes out both townies. Scorched Earth! Who wins?

In both cases the Exterminator team would win. The operative just punches out the human or something. In the second case, yeah, the Exterminator wins by having everyone else dead regardless of whether or not he's alive.

Agent and Agent Operative are on the same side, but they're not a specific team. [...] Actually, there isn't any reason an Agent Operative couldn't share tech with the Agent once he makes contact.

I find this surprising, and good for town; once the Op is sure the Agent is not a dopp, they can become quite powerful if they can share the tech. He could take two Personal Shields as his two small tech choices, and give one to the Agent, for example. Good stuff.

More in general, since Agent/Agent-Op aren't a specific team, can an Agent Op share tech with someone else? Say he scans his Agent and finds he's a dopp, but there's someone else who is a confirmed townie for whatever reason; could the Agent Op give that townie a Personal Shield?
[/quote]

Well, for one thing he can only have 1 of any given item. So he could give a personal shield to the other player, but he can't double up on it or anything. And it's really nothing more than a somewhat nicer 1-shot Guardian Effect. So I don't consider that really broken.

After all, that just effects who the dopps might go after. An Agent with a Personal Shield still loses if the dopps outnumber the town.

But, yes, the ability to share tech is included in the cost of the Agent Operative.

If you're going to do that, why not just let any alien share any tech? That could open up several interesting possibilities.  The Hivemind normally wouldn't want to take any action-using items, but he could give it to his first convert, letting him be his own personal operative.  Perhaps possibilities of cutting deals could open up with exchanging tech for support on a lynch, or NK protection, or covering a lie for someone else.

Hmmm. I like this idea. I think we'll go with it. If it causes problems, I can always change it. Certain items could be owner-only, or have DNA encryption to restrict who can use it.

On that note, does a Hivemind convert lose any powers he had?

No. The converts keep all abilities.



I'm going to go through and update the Rules post a bit.

[Mephansteras]

I've decided to add a nice ability to the Sentry Guns. They can now be programmed with Facial Recognition that allows the Scientist to put people on a 'safe list'.