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Keep it as is

3 (12%)

Change it to a full Jester, with game-end on win

1 (4%)

Change it to a full Jester, but without game-end on win

5 (20%)

Change it to a full Jester, with game-end on win AFTER day 3

3 (12%)

Change it to a Jester with the loss of the Next Day phase

4 (16%)

Remove it entirely

9 (36%)

Other (explain)

0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 25

[Mephansteras]

Oh, the actual Jester role (Victim) was a town role, not alien. But with the Spore Spreaders I don't think it's necessary, since having any sort of Jester role in the game serves the main purpose of allowing for additional gambits.

Well, I figured all third parties should be aliens since this is paranormal. But, it'd be funnier to have an alien activist then a depressed human.

Hehe. True enough.

But I'll leave them out regardless, since I like the spore people better.

[Jim Groovester]

Do the Spore Spreaders get rid of their target's role when they convert somebody?

[Mephansteras]

Yes, it's a pure role & team conversion.

[Org]

Spore Spreader seems pretty cool.
And Traumatized Survivor seems interesting.

[Pandarsenic]

Spore spreader has no real need to play as anything but a Townie.

[Mephansteras]

Spore spreader has no real need to play as anything but a Townie.

Well, after the first one is lynched, maybe. But the Spore Spreader loses if he's killed by the dopps or an alien (or is abducted). Much safer to get lynched early one when the odds of getting two converts is high.

[webadict]

Are there any other additions + where are they?

[Mephansteras]

Still mulling over some of the ideas you guys threw out earlier. Once I get that hashed out (mostly balance stuff), I'll let you guys know.

[Mr.Person]

Ideas:

Have the Deadman Bomb block your roleflip, too. It might encourage certain players to take one if they have an Operative and either keep it for themselves or pass it on. Aliens can still give their techs away, right? Also, there should be some kind of poison that aliens can get. Exterminators might take the Deadman and poison and try to live til the end of the game so they can kill everyone left with the poison, bomb, and the nightkill. Or just continue with the necessary body double if they're smart. I'd make it a day poison and completely get rid of the Assassin Bot. In fact, I'd do the same to the Scientist version as well since the Scientist Assassin Bot is the really game-breaking one.

Operatives should be able to help out any alien, not just Exterminators. I think I might of brought this up before, but I really dislike the "Oh shit, Operative roleflip, there's an Exterminator running around" moments since they add undesirable certainty to the game. Heck, why not allow Operatives to help out any player at all? Then we have to decide if the Op's target knows if he or she has an Op helping him or her out. There's also the problem of whether the Operative should know his or her target's win-con or not. I vote no since figuring it out is half the fun, but I understand some people dislike not knowing what they should be doing. Quick note: Operative loyalty does not continue if the target's race changes, so if the target is a dopp or changes into another race somehow, the Operative wins when the Dopps are dead (or wins by surviving, either one works) although the Operative is never told if or when this happens.

Allow more than one Exterminator per game. Maybe the other aliens too, although a game with 3 Survivors would suuuuuuuck, so possibly 2 max on all of them with the second being extra weighted? This could be done quite simply in the role list by keeping the Exterminator entry as-is and adding a second Exterminator entry that requires the first one to exist to be generated. The "requires another role to exist" roles never generated very often.

[webadict]

Ideas:

Have the Deadman Bomb block your roleflip, too. It might encourage certain players to take one if they have an Operative and either keep it for themselves or pass it on. Aliens can still give their techs away, right? Also, there should be some kind of poison that aliens can get. Exterminators might take the Deadman and poison and try to live til the end of the game so they can kill everyone left with the poison, bomb, and the nightkill. Or just continue with the necessary body double if they're smart. I'd make it a day poison and completely get rid of the Assassin Bot. In fact, I'd do the same to the Scientist version as well since the Scientist Assassin Bot is the really game-breaking one.

Operatives should be able to help out any alien, not just Exterminators. I think I might of brought this up before, but I really dislike the "Oh shit, Operative roleflip, there's an Exterminator running around" moments since they add undesirable certainty to the game. Heck, why not allow Operatives to help out any player at all? Then we have to decide if the Op's target knows if he or she has an Op helping him or her out. There's also the problem of whether the Operative should know his or her target's win-con or not. I vote no since figuring it out is half the fun, but I understand some people dislike not knowing what they should be doing. Quick note: Operative loyalty does not continue if the target's race changes, so if the target is a dopp or changes into another race somehow, the Operative wins when the Dopps are dead (or wins by surviving, either one works) although the Operative is never told if or when this happens.

Allow more than one Exterminator per game. Maybe the other aliens too, although a game with 3 Survivors would suuuuuuuck, so possibly 2 max on all of them with the second being extra weighted? This could be done quite simply in the role list by keeping the Exterminator entry as-is and adding a second Exterminator entry that requires the first one to exist to be generated. The "requires another role to exist" roles never generated very often.

No on the first one. You're making the game into some sort of mystery gambit instead of a mafia game. The point of the deadman bomb is that it ONLY HELPS THE EXTERMINATOR. He has to kill everyone, so WHY would any other alien want it? The Survivor can't use it except for a threat. The Operative can't choose it. The Zoologist doesn't want it.

Now, I believe you're talking about the Assassin Bot with a Deadman Bomb to win the game. Highly unlikely but possible. But, why get rid of the Assassin Bot and replace it... with a poison... that is exactly the same? Why would anyone want that? Flavor reasons, or what? The Mad Scientist isn't game-breaking. It's just slightly more powerful than it's given credit for.

Maybe on the second one. The Exterminator has a tough time as it is, but making an Operative not indicative of an Exterminator might work. However, you'd have to watch out, because an Operative + Survivor team is essentially 2 extra Dopps, and an Operative + Zoologist team is pretty useless as well, as the Zoologist already has a high win-rate.

However, making it help any role is a straight-up no. Town could have a confirmed Townie pair on their side and the Dopps get an extra partner. Plus, the alien theme doesn't fit well with that.

A probably not on the third one. Having several of any one alien is fairly anti-Town in all instances. 2 Exterminators might be the only case where the Dopps are equally in trouble. 2 Survivors makes the game lean heavily toward the Dopps. And 2 Zoologists? NO. 2 Operatives is laughable, so that's why I'm leaning no on that.

[Mr.Person]

No on the first one. You're making the game into some sort of mystery gambit instead of a mafia game. The point of the deadman bomb is that it ONLY HELPS THE EXTERMINATOR. He has to kill everyone, so WHY would any other alien want it? The Survivor can't use it except for a threat. The Operative can't choose it. The Zoologist doesn't want it.

I fail to see how gambits or increasing options are bad. Alien gambits were usually the best part of Paranormal. Your other point that only the Exterminator has any reason to take the bomb is actually a major issue. If only the Exterminator has any reason to actually take the Deadman Bomb, it should either be retooled into something every alien could use, removed entirely, or given to the Exterminator for free. What's the point of having options if everybody chooses the same thing over and over? On the other hand, if a whole new batch of aliens show up and/or the Operative gets a tech choice (he really should, turn his current abilities into a tech, I know I've brought this up recently), I'd suggest keeping things as-is and seeing what happens.

Now, I believe you're talking about the Assassin Bot with a Deadman Bomb to win the game. Highly unlikely but possible. But, why get rid of the Assassin Bot and replace it... with a poison... that is exactly the same? Why would anyone want that? Flavor reasons, or what? The Mad Scientist isn't game-breaking. It's just slightly more powerful than it's given credit for.

Mad Scientist isn't game-breaking, but Assassin Bot sure as fuck is. That invention severely warps the format. You're a Military Mad Scientist, what invention do you pick? Spoiler alert: you pick Assassin Bot or gimp yourself. Dopp? Keep the Scientist alive til lylo to insta-win. Town? Counter a mafia Assassin Bot, get a free lynch if the town decides to lynch you, or confirm yourself at lylo while killing your prime suspect off.

But ok, the alien version is probably fine. Let him keep the Assassin Bot. I'm just a fan of alien-scientist invention symmetry, but apparently nobody else is so it doesn't matter. This is one case where it makes sense to empower the alien version.

Maybe on the second one. The Exterminator has a tough time as it is, but making an Operative not indicative of an Exterminator might work. However, you'd have to watch out, because an Operative + Survivor team is essentially 2 extra Dopps, and an Operative + Zoologist team is pretty useless as well, as the Zoologist already has a high win-rate.

I forgot Paranormal is pretty much the only free-PM game we play here and the ramifications of free-PMing with information. If the Operative is restricted to aliens, I'd be very selective about what aliens he can help out. Right now I'd say only the Exterminator should get it, although if the Zoologist gets tweaked to be harder he totally deserves some Operative love. Maybe allow Ops on all aliens if there's a Zoologist-restricted tech that just gives you the name of another alien in the setup or tells you there are no other aliens if that's the case. This would be so that an Exterminator or Survivor could claim Operative if he wanted to for whatever reason. It's only an issue if you can trust an Operative claim, so add uncertainty and watch the players WIFOM themselves into thinking the Op is a fakeclaiming Exterminator.

However, making it help any role is a straight-up no. Town could have a confirmed Townie pair on their side and the Dopps get an extra partner. Plus, the alien theme doesn't fit well with that.

Flavor can be bent into anything and is a problem that only Meph should be concerned with.

Alright, fine, the Operative should only know their target's name, not role or race. Target isn't told about their Operative's assistance. If the target's a dopp, Operative wins with town. Claiming instantly to your target makes no sense because the player is either a dopp and going to trick you or a townie and is going to do nothing differently. You act as though saying "I'm an Operative to Player X" would confirm the Operative to be real (could be an Exterminator with Intel, could be a ballsy Dopp) and confirm Player X is actually town (could be a dopp even if Operative is telling the truth, could be a anything if the Operative is lying or faking).

A probably not on the third one. Having several of any one alien is fairly anti-Town in all instances. 2 Exterminators might be the only case where the Dopps are equally in trouble. 2 Survivors makes the game lean heavily toward the Dopps. And 2 Zoologists? NO. 2 Operatives is laughable, so that's why I'm leaning no on that.

This is what role weights are for. I'm not suggesting making every game Roswell, I'm just saying allow the script to rarely spit out balanced surprising setups. If they can't be balanced no matter what, that's one thing which may be true, but don't just go "2 Zoologists? NO." and expect me to know why that's bad. Two of the little bastards sounds fun to me depending on what happens if one abducts the other. Two Survivors sounds tough to balance. but it might be doable with some heavy pro-town roles. The point isn't to play with two of them in any actual games, the point is to have the option open so there's as many claims as possible open at all times.

[webadict]

I fail to see how gambits or increasing options are bad. Alien gambits were usually the best part of Paranormal. Your other point that only the Exterminator has any reason to take the bomb is actually a major issue. If only the Exterminator has any reason to actually take the Deadman Bomb, it should either be retooled into something every alien could use, removed entirely, or given to the Exterminator for free. What's the point of having options if everybody chooses the same thing over and over? On the other hand, if a whole new batch of aliens show up and/or the Operative gets a tech choice (he really should, turn his current abilities into a tech, I know I've brought this up recently), I'd suggest keeping things as-is and seeing what happens.

The no roleflipping... is never good in a game like Paranormal. I don't even think that the AD should have a Townie roleflip because it's a straight-up lie followed by a screw you players. It's simply anti-everyone else. It only helps their team. And while you might think that that is oh so incredibly helpful it really isn't because the alien is dead now. Congratulations on making our jobs more difficult. Because this game is totally all about lack of information and taking guesses instead of logically deducing targets. My bad.

Now, as for your complaint about there always being the same thing to choose: I heartily disagree. I'll simply give the word Chess. Over the past century, the game of chess has evolved from the taking of pieces and forcing the opponent into submission to tactfully placing pieces and checkmating. While the old strategy is still used, that doesn't make it the best way. The Exterminator has plenty of options that have never been tried because there hasn't been anyone brave enough to try out an equipment set.

Mad Scientist isn't game-breaking, but Assassin Bot sure as fuck is. That invention severely warps the format. You're a Military Mad Scientist, what invention do you pick? Spoiler alert: you pick Assassin Bot or gimp yourself. Dopp? Keep the Scientist alive til lylo to insta-win. Town? Counter a mafia Assassin Bot, get a free lynch if the town decides to lynch you, or confirm yourself at lylo while killing your prime suspect off.

But ok, the alien version is probably fine. Let him keep the Assassin Bot. I'm just a fan of alien-scientist invention symmetry, but apparently nobody else is so it doesn't matter. This is one case where it makes sense to empower the alien version.

Incorrect again. The Assassin Bot is a WELL-KNOWN and failure prone Dopp tool. It's not coming out of nowhere or anything. We knew it was a possibility. Now, what we might need are a couple of counters (Tech Shield, EMP, etc.) but the device itself is completely legal and sound in use.

But, the Alien one doesn't need any more power. But, Aliens need a Tech shield or something.

I forgot Paranormal is pretty much the only free-PM game we play here and the ramifications of free-PMing with information. If the Operative is restricted to aliens, I'd be very selective about what aliens he can help out. Right now I'd say only the Exterminator should get it, although if the Zoologist gets tweaked to be harder he totally deserves some Operative love. Maybe allow Ops on all aliens if there's a Zoologist-restricted tech that just gives you the name of another alien in the setup or tells you there are no other aliens if that's the case. This would be so that an Exterminator or Survivor could claim Operative if he wanted to for whatever reason. It's only an issue if you can trust an Operative claim, so add uncertainty and watch the players WIFOM themselves into thinking the Op is a fakeclaiming Exterminator.

Meh. The Zoologist is perfectly fine, as is. He's the perfect combination of anti-Town and anti-scum, like the Exterminator, though he could probably use less Tech. You also take for granted the amount of WIFOM that a person can successfully dish out. And that's not very. I'd say that Solifuge is the best example by managing to get almost everyone turned against the Child and that took him three other people, several days of work and PMing. Do you really think people are going to see "Operative" and not think "lynch!"?

Most people don't claim Aliens until lylo, and by then, the extra killings MIGHT tip you off that there's an Exterminator.

Alright, fine, the Operative should only know their target's name, not role or race. Target isn't told about their Operative's assistance. If the target's a dopp, Operative wins with town. Claiming instantly to your target makes no sense because the player is either a dopp and going to trick you or a townie and is going to do nothing differently. You act as though saying "I'm an Operative to Player X" would confirm the Operative to be real (could be an Exterminator with Intel, could be a ballsy Dopp) and confirm Player X is actually town (could be a dopp even if Operative is telling the truth, could be a anything if the Operative is lying or faking).

Obvious flaw: Operative ISN'T TRYING TO HELP THE PERSON ANYMORE. Plus, with a one-shot inspect and kill, congratulations Town.

How about we don't do that?

This is what role weights are for. I'm not suggesting making every game Roswell, I'm just saying allow the script to rarely spit out balanced surprising setups. If they can't be balanced no matter what, that's one thing which may be true, but don't just go "2 Zoologists? NO." and expect me to know why that's bad. Two of the little bastards sounds fun to me depending on what happens if one abducts the other. Two Survivors sounds tough to balance. but it might be doable with some heavy pro-town roles. The point isn't to play with two of them in any actual games, the point is to have the option open so there's as many claims as possible open at all times.

Right. Here's how 2 Zoologists works out:
Night 1:
X and Y have been kidnapped.
Night 2:
X and Y have been kidnapped.
Day 3:
DID I MENTION IT'S FRICKIN' LYLO?!?

Let's not do that. K? They won't cross-abduct. It's not like 2 scumteams because they just don't have several people to choose. It's a one-man capturing squad. SKs are severely tough to find because they can act like an ordinary citizen.

[Leafsnail]

SKs are actually very easy to find from the dopp perspective.  I nailed Solifuge using dopp-knowledge in the last (or last but one?  I forget).

[webadict]

SKs are actually very easy to find from the dopp perspective.  I nailed Solifuge using dopp-knowledge in the last (or last but one?  I forget).

I meant good SKs.

[Solifuge]

Good sir, you wound me.

Also, I haven't been an Exterminator in a long time. You've got the wrong man!