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Keep it as is

3 (12%)

Change it to a full Jester, with game-end on win

1 (4%)

Change it to a full Jester, but without game-end on win

5 (20%)

Change it to a full Jester, with game-end on win AFTER day 3

3 (12%)

Change it to a Jester with the loss of the Next Day phase

4 (16%)

Remove it entirely

9 (36%)

Other (explain)

0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 25

[Mr.Person]

I think we should have something that separates the cult and the dopps. For instance, the cult should have the Suicide Bomber, the dopps should have the Advanced Dopp. Cult should have a Kidnapper (No roleflip if this guy does the nightkill, maybe make it 1-shot?), dopps should have the Gargantuan Dopp (Guardian doesn't stop this guy, although the Heroic Guard does).

Those are just examples, of course, but the point is, the cult and dopps should be at least somewhat different instead of slightly different as it is now.

[Leafsnail]

Sorry, SC, I did indeed mean Toony and Duke.

Anyway, the detective is a rolecop!  A pro scum role!  Surely there's no better way for the scum to locate and take out the town power roles?  For the town I suppose his main use is finding unfriendly aliens.  I suppose you could sum up the investigative roles:
Agent:
False positives: Goth, Kook (maybe there could be an equivalent alien one?)
False negatives: HM, Cult Leader, Dopp Leader

Telepath:
False positives: Any killing roles
False negatives: No explicitly anti-town roles, but some aliens show up as "survive".  Also has the problem of mindshields

Detective:
Can only identify the alignment of aliens for sure, but is pretty useful for scum.

And it would be nice to have some differentiation between the scum teams.  Currently the only differences I see are:
Controlled doppelganger
Advanced doppelganger
Cult removes possibility of Survivor

[webadict]

The Cult is completely unnecessary. I like just Doppelgangers. I mean, that's how it was meant to be played.

[Leafsnail]

What do you mean, "How it was meant to be played"?  I mean, unless Meph has a problem with the cult...

Although I do like the Doppelgangers too.  Are they meant to be D&D style dopps?  Can't find any appropriate google image search results...

[webadict]

What do you mean, "How it was meant to be played"?  I mean, unless Meph has a problem with the cult...

Although I do like the Doppelgangers too.  Are they meant to be D&D style dopps?  Can't find any appropriate google image search results...

Before your time, young one.

[dakarian]

The game started as just having Dopps eating people up with a few aliens to confuse the whole matter.

The cult was actually put in as a second mafia (guessing that the idea of two different rival dopp groups didn't make sense). 

I'll agree that the idea of having the cult now that we won't have two groups is rather redundant.  Just giving them a few roles won't cut it since you could just give the dopps the same features.  They need to be fundamentally different from the dopps (just as the aliens are different from humans/dopps).  Note that traditionally, cults recruit instead of kill.  Not sure if that won't botch up the game.  Other than that, though, I'm not sure what can be done with these cults that can't be done with just dopps.

As for the roles, Detective really isn't useful for the town.  Instead of getting rid of it, just make it Dopp only.  I agree on the DoT.  It's literally a free dopp kill/confirmed townie in day 1 and there's really no reason for the town to really need that. 

So:

Find a new meaning for the cult, not just a 'dopps but different' or remove.
Make Detective Dopp only since only they really need it
DoT removed since the town doesn't really need it


And what's so bad about dopp redirecters?   There's so few 'power moving' roles here. 

[Leafsnail]

Find a new meaning for the cult, not just a 'dopps but different' or remove.
Make Detective Dopp only since only they really need it
DoT removed since the town doesn't really need it

Perhaps the DoT could also become scum only?  That would help them more with their rolecopping.

And yes, aren't the Cult traditionally an anti-town mason group with a recruiter, or something like that?

[dakarian]

A 1 shot alignement/power is ...ok for the dopps, though if you hit, say, a vanilla townie you wasted it.

Detective, though, lets them find out who the trackers, guardians, warlocks, and other goodies are.  For mafia, only thing more valuable is a death miller.

The way the cult works: 

Starts with 1 Cult Leader.  The leader, each night, can recruit one player who becomes a cult member.  They continue this until the leader dies.  The members are, as you say, a mason group that's anti-town (and anti-mafia).  Their goal is like the mafia: for them to be the same size as all non-cultists.  The details, like what happens when the leader targets a mafia, how old town powers are handled, and whether the cult can kill vary by the host.

You don't see cults often because they are extremely deadly.  The town can't beat the cult in lynches until they find the leader.  Also, they run havok with the day game: a player who, at day 1, has shown 110% town tells (since they ARE town) is now an enemy (since they are now cult).  There's a style of analysis that lets you find culties but it's radically different from finding dopps.

Even with all of the insane roles, this game doesn't seem to be big on being CRAZY-GO-NUTS as far as how the game is played.  I can see a recruiting cult working here, but the dynamics of the game would change very dramically: probably too dramatically.  Besides, the only game I know that had recruiting roles was Religious mafia and it was very low-key there.

[Leafsnail]

I think TM might have recruiting roles this time around.

Anyway, a cult like that would be very interesting, but as you say, would change the game very dramatically.  I see the problem with alignment flips too - you could deliberately try to get your alignment flipped and mess up the game.  I suppose it could be balanced though, if the Cult leader couldn't convert, say, mafia members and aliens (humans only) and perhaps Mind Shield also grants immunity to indoctrination?

[dakarian]

Traditionally, the cult could not recuit mafia.  Most say the leader dies if they try.  Some say it just fails. 

If I were to put it here, I would set it to kill if they target a dopp and fail on an alien.  I would let it work vs a mind shield (since it's a physical action rather than a psychic one and there's enough things in the leader's way).  I would also have the new recruit lose their old powers.

Meanwhile, Agent and detective (if detective switches to Dopp only) would be able to detect them, including the leader).  Telepath would see the leader as "Recruit" and members as "Survive".  Recruiting would be a physical move that isn't hampered by protection roles (since no one is being harmed.  Includes Guardians, Bodyguards, Body Doubles, and Shields). 

[Leafsnail]

I like the idea, although I'd suggest that having the Cult Leader as the only one with "Recruit" could be a little harsh.  At least the AE can claim PWV if worst comes to worst.

And it would make sense for the agent to continue to detect cultists in the same way, getting a "Human Cultist" result.  Actually, losing the powers seems like a fair way of doing it, and would stop the cult leader from just swiping all the best roles (and the cult would effectively become a mafia if they got a vig).  Also, the possibility of recruitment would mean the town would have to rely less on investigative roles, I guess.

[dakarian]

A few reasons for the leader getting 'recruit'

1. it's technically true.  Leader role is to recruit others. 

2. Unlike the dopps where the 'leader' is just a power role, the leader is critical to stopping the cult.  So long as the leader lives, the town and dopps will lose.  As such, the agent seeing members isn't enough unless they get lucky.  The detective can find the leader but, again, I want that to be dopp only.  The telepath then becomes the true 'cult stopper' by finding the head. 

[Mr.Person]

I think the cult members should show up as protect, actually.

Cults only really work in large games, like 15+. Just food for thought.

In any case, the mind control ray should be multi-use, it's kinda weak right now. I suppose you could move it to its own role, like a Hypnotist or something. DoT should be cut, it's not a power thing, it's just not fun. Detective should stay as-is, role cops are useful, although the are more powerful in the scum's hands. You can confirm a claim, which is always nice, and you can find the aliens nicely, and the cult, if it gets added as a normal cult instead of a second mafia faction. Townies should stay and become more prevelant. The problem isn't that there are townies, it's that there's not enough! The only other cool addition would be maybe adding millers. If nothing else, it makes the medium less powerful. (No, I'm a miller, you have to believe me!) Seriously, there needs to be both more scum-PR and anti-town town-based PR.

[dakarian]

For all of the fuss I'm making for cult, I wouldn't agree to adding them in.  They are too game changing.

I agree with moving mind control to a separate role.  DoT, of course, should be gone.  Detective.. well, has there ever been a dopp detective?  I know they tend to get guardians.  If there's some mechanics to decide how often dopps recieve certain roles, I say make the detective show up more often for them.  More townies is a good thing: what happened to to chance of it being a no-power game? 

Heh. anti-town town PRs?  Beloved Princess anyone? 

[Mr.Person]

For all of the fuss I'm making for cult, I wouldn't agree to adding them in.  They are too game changing.

I agree with moving mind control to a separate role.  DoT, of course, should be gone.  Detective.. well, has there ever been a dopp detective?  I know they tend to get guardians.  If there's some mechanics to decide how often dopps recieve certain roles, I say make the detective show up more often for them.  More townies is a good thing: what happened to to chance of it being a no-power game? 

Heh. anti-town town PRs?  Beloved Princess anyone? 

I still think we need a "Spook", who would pretty much be an ascetic.

Say, we should make the DoT think a poll.