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Keep it as is

3 (12%)

Change it to a full Jester, with game-end on win

1 (4%)

Change it to a full Jester, but without game-end on win

5 (20%)

Change it to a full Jester, with game-end on win AFTER day 3

3 (12%)

Change it to a Jester with the loss of the Next Day phase

4 (16%)

Remove it entirely

9 (36%)

Other (explain)

0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 25

[Max White]

Yea, kills and converts are the kind of thing you want to keep to a one a night basis in general... There might be reasonable exceptions, but it would take a lot of counterbalance.

[Mephansteras]

Main reason Vig is a possible Dopp role is that it keeps a Detective from knowing for a fact that the Vig is Town. Dropping the Dopp count down if they have either of those two roles is an interesting idea, though. Could make the difference.

Looking back over the last ten games, I think those are the only really unbalancing roles. Town's won 4 and Dopps 6, so it's really not that far off. A single additional town win would put us tied.

The Aliens don't really hurt town all that much from the looks of it, and sometimes they help. So it seems to mostly balance itself out.

[Mephansteras]

I think for the next game I'll include the SS changes as well as the Rogue Doppelganger. Tech stuff will wait for next time as I decide what I like and don't like.

[webadict]

Drop the Spore Spreader. It's just doesn't seem like a fun mechanic.

[Max White]

Drop the Spore Spreader. It's just doesn't seem like a fun mechanic.

Yea, I'm In... Hoping to roll spore spreader and then win long after my own death.

[webadict]

Drop the Spore Spreader. It's just doesn't seem like a fun mechanic.

Yea, I'm In... Hoping to roll spore spreader and then win long after my own death.

Right, but the Spore Spreader is a passive element to the game. And doesn't require active participation to win. You just... do. I would rather win through active participation.

[Mephansteras]

Drop the Spore Spreader. It's just doesn't seem like a fun mechanic.

Yea, I'm In... Hoping to roll spore spreader and then win long after my own death.

Right, but the Spore Spreader is a passive element to the game. And doesn't require active participation to win. You just... do. I would rather win through active participation.

Did you read my ideas for the new SS mechanic? I made it MUCH more active now. You not only have a Night Action to Infect someone with, you're actively trying to get everyone infected by the end of the game. This should effect both night action choices as well as lynch decisions.

[webadict]

Drop the Spore Spreader. It's just doesn't seem like a fun mechanic.

Yea, I'm In... Hoping to roll spore spreader and then win long after my own death.

Right, but the Spore Spreader is a passive element to the game. And doesn't require active participation to win. You just... do. I would rather win through active participation.

Did you read my ideas for the new SS mechanic? I made it MUCH more active now. You not only have a Night Action to Infect someone with, you're actively trying to get everyone infected by the end of the game. This should effect both night action choices as well as lynch decisions.

Basically, have the SS visit someone each night to infect them with Spores. Once that is done, that Player will now release Spores upon being Lynched (but not killed in any other way). Those Spores will now infect a random non-Infected player (and not the SS, of course). The SS will always know who is infected. If the SS is lynched (but not killed in any other way), they will do the same.

I don't see how this affects lynch decisions. It just creates a separate win condition that impacts other players, is far more powerful than a Cult, is detrimental to the actual game, and is super anti-fun. And here's why:

1) Lynch Infecting: There is ZERO skill involved in getting yourself lynched, or in gaining extra infectees from lynches. If you get lucky and infect the scum, you could win.

2) Win Indication: There is a certain measure of indication for win conditions. Typically, it's the remaining number of players that gives it away. For Spore Spreaders, there's the issue of nobody knows how close to losing they are.

3) Powerful Yet Passive: The Spore Spreader is super powerful. Far more powerful than a cult. However, needing to infect everyone makes them basically impossible to win. They are like a Watcher mixed with a Cult mixed with a Survivor, but in all the worst aspects of the role. This doesn't make it fun to combine a whole bunch of roles.

4) Nonsensical: The Spore Spreader doesn't add anything to the game flavorwise. They're a cybernetic race of aliens that infects its host to spread its spores. But, killing the host is the only way to continue the infection. That's not a viable way to live. You'll just eventually kill off all your hosts. How would a Spore Spreader MAKE another Spore Spreader?

Can you make the role fun and make sense? Because as it stands, it just plays a passive role until you randomly win. I'd rather be a Doppelganger and eat people or a Human and fight Doppelgangers or even a Survivor that got caught in the middle than this random Spore Spreader guy, because then I'm not playing a different game from everyone else.

[Mephansteras]

1) Lynch Infecting: There is ZERO skill involved in getting yourself lynched, or in gaining extra infectees from lynches. If you get lucky and infect the scum, you could win.

Sure, but the lynch infection is just a last-ditch thing. The night-action infection is the main avenue for victory.

2) Win Indication: There is a certain measure of indication for win conditions. Typically, it's the remaining number of players that gives it away. For Spore Spreaders, there's the issue of nobody knows how close to losing they are.

Yeah, I've been pondering this. There obviously needs to be some way for town to know about a Spore Spreader and possibly a way to counter it. I think I'll make it obvious on role-flop if someone was infected or not. That should help, because you can use basic math to figure out about how many people have probably been infected. I'll probably let Guards stop an infection as well (And either become infected themselves or simply stop it, as appropriate). That, with Tech shields, should be enough I think.

3) Powerful Yet Passive: The Spore Spreader is super powerful. Far more powerful than a cult. However, needing to infect everyone makes them basically impossible to win. They are like a Watcher mixed with a Cult mixed with a Survivor, but in all the worst aspects of the role. This doesn't make it fun to combine a whole bunch of roles.

It simply infects people now, so it's not a cult. More Arson who's trying to get everyone tagged at the end of the game.

4) Nonsensical: The Spore Spreader doesn't add anything to the game flavorwise. They're a cybernetic race of aliens that infects its host to spread its spores. But, killing the host is the only way to continue the infection. That's not a viable way to live. You'll just eventually kill off all your hosts. How would a Spore Spreader MAKE another Spore Spreader?

They no longer require killing to continue the infection. Flavor-wise, the spores infect someone and then have a reasonably long gestation period. They do spread on lynching, because the heightened stress and fear triggers an escape mechanism in the spores to try and find a new host. A quick death (anything but a lynch) happens to fast for them to respond in time. Lore-wise the reason they need everyone infected at the end is that any uninfected people will be able to escape and warn the authorities, who will then quarantine the area and purge the SS and its spawn.

Can you make the role fun and make sense? Because as it stands, it just plays a passive role until you randomly win. I'd rather be a Doppelganger and eat people or a Human and fight Doppelgangers or even a Survivor that got caught in the middle than this random Spore Spreader guy, because then I'm not playing a different game from everyone else.

My idea for this is that you'll be carefully trying to pick targets to give you the best chance of having everyone infected at the end of the game. Someone who is likely to get Night-killed is a bad choice. You want people who will either live through the game or get lynched. It's a more subtle role than basic Town/Dopp, but it should still be interesting. And no more passive than a SK, especially since you need the game to go on long enough for you to make sure everyone at the end is infected. If town or dopps win too early, you're out of luck, so you definitely care about identifying scum and working to keep things going. But with more to do than the Watcher.

[webadict]

I'll be right back with some test statistics. I really think the Spore Spreader is a very anti-fun role.

[webadict]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaand here's the results:

Assuming no roles to interfere other than the following:

Doppelganger
Townie
Spore Spreader

This program assumes total randomness for lynch, non-Dopp for kill, and non-infected for infection. Infected players infect on lynch.

Variables: 16 Town, 4 Dopp, 1 SS
Dopp Wins: 7536 Spore Wins: 2005 Town Wins: 459

Variables: 16 Town, 3 Dopp, 1 SS
Dopp Wins: 5685 Spore Wins: 3177 Town Wins: 1138

Variables: 16 Town, 2 Dopp, 1 SS
Dopp Wins: 3619 Spore Wins: 3796 Town Wins: 2585

Changes to rule set: Infected players no longer infect on lynch.
Variables: 16 Town, 4 Dopp, 1 SS
Dopp Wins: 8473 Spore Wins: 927 Town Wins: 600

Variables: 16 Town, 3 Dopp, 1 SS
Dopp Wins: 7131 Spore Wins: 1423 Town Wins: 1446

Variables: 16 Town, 2 Dopp, 1 SS
Dopp Wins: 5193 Spore Wins: 1699 Town Wins: 3108

NOTE: Changing player number to 15 will more accurately judge win rates, but assume a slight increase in Spore and Town win rates and a slight decrease in Dopp win rates with 15. I'm too lazy to check all of them at the moment.

Effectively, this is just a bunch of stats of what happens in the game with no modifiers. Sure, the roles balance the game in favor of town, but these don't have much effect on the Spore Spreader. Tech Shields are relatively uncommon, and you can merely decrease the win rate a max of 10% to adjust for them.

The Spore Spreader has no counter play other than killing or blocking the Spore Spreader, which, in itself, is tougher than saying so. The Dopps can be protected against, investigated, blocked, lynched, and killed. The Spore Spreader has difficulty being found out, wins long after death, increases his chances of winning with his lynch or infectees' lynches (which is the Town's biggest weapon), and can actually make the game unwinnable if left to his own devices (which a third party usually is, since he's not the main focus).

I don't want another role that's not fun. This one isn't as broken as the Ghost or Watcher, but it's still broken, and the game's fun could be at risk.

[Mephansteras]

I'll run some simulations with roles over the weekend, see what that comes up with.

[Leafsnail]

I really don't like the new SS proposal.  It's too random for the SS with the spores splashing on random people, and no other faction can really do anything about the Spore Spreader even though it can make them lose.

If you want a Paranormal jester, I've come up with a new mechanic idea (although I'm not sure how to flavour it).  Basically, once per game during the night it can make an announcement, publically.  This announcement forces the town to lynch on the next day (spore spreader can privately break a tie).  If the spore spreader is lynched that day, they win and everyone else who has not already achieved their win condition loses.  If the spore spreader is not lynched on that day, they lose and leave the game.

I think this would be an interesting role for all involved - perhaps fairly difficult to win, but I think that's acceptable for a third party that can have the glory of a solo victory.  I'm thinking they should maybe have a medium tech slot because the idea of them screwing with an Advanced Holoform Modulator amuses me.

[Leafsnail]

Maybe they'd need to have a requirement that they activate the announcement while there are a certain number of other players alive, so that the role cannot be played as a survivor.

[webadict]

I actually like that idea.

The role isn't a survivor though. Since the announcement needs to be made at Night, they can't win by just surviving. If the game ends without them being lynched, they should lose.

It's actually a rather well done Jester.