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Keep it as is

3 (12%)

Change it to a full Jester, with game-end on win

1 (4%)

Change it to a full Jester, but without game-end on win

5 (20%)

Change it to a full Jester, with game-end on win AFTER day 3

3 (12%)

Change it to a Jester with the loss of the Next Day phase

4 (16%)

Remove it entirely

9 (36%)

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0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 25

[Org]

Aliens win all the time, Exterminators just can't seem to win.

I didn't say exterminator.
I was merely commenting that I won as the dopplenapper.

[Mr.Person]

Body Double, Personal Shield, it's all the same. Quit being smart asses. Actually, this is something that needs to be fixed. It's needlessly confusing.

I actually like the Exterminator balance since there's a variety of strategies for him to take. So there's a lot of different things you can try doing. Either way, realistically we should try to keep Exterminator tech choices pretty close to what we already have, just maybe with a few additions.

You know what, we're looking at it backwards. Instead of looking at potential new tech and thinking 'Is this a good idea to add?', let's look at what kinds of Aliens we want to wind up with then creating tech to make those Alien variants. For instance, as an Exterminator, you can pretend to be a vigilante if you take Combat Camouflage.You could use your slot for an Intel to learn what your foes are and what the perfect fakeclaim is. The Plasma Bomb, however, doesn't really open doors. Describe to me what kind of Exterminator would take a Plasma Bomb. The idea is interesting and powerful, it's just not something I would really want to take if I wanted to be aggressive. Honestly, I'd rather have an Assassin Bot. The role it does fill is if I want to be an evil mastermind, screwing everyone over because they did what I told them to do! That's perfectly fine, I just wonder if there might be a better item for that.

One thing I would love to do as an Exterminator is not kill until the end and come out as a surprise. There's no tech to help me out except a Personal Shield and Assassin Bot combo, I guess. That's just lazy, though, I'd really love to have another option. I'd give up all kinds of shit if I could become an Arsonist. There's also nothing to help me out if what I want to do is find and blackmail a Survivor. There's nothing for me if I want to frame another player (Maybe make the Advanced Holoform able to project as another player doing an action?), or just dodge inspections.

Before I forget, I think Dopp War vets, Dopp Vigilantes, and Advanced Dopps are marked as psychic in the role matrix. There's also this duplication of the whole thing for seemingly no reason.

[Pandarsenic]

Maybe we should make the Exterminator able to choose between the basic Mind Shield and the ability to have its kill be Psychic instead of up-close-and-personal, with the upgraded mind shield tech becoming a normal mind shield device. Or give him a mind shield on nights he doesn't kill.

[Mephansteras]

Before I forget, I think Dopp War vets, Dopp Vigilantes, and Advanced Dopps are marked as psychic in the role matrix. There's also this duplication of the whole thing for seemingly no reason.

Odd. I'll have to look into that.

For the rest of it, I think you have some good ideas there. For Round 16 I think we'll just go with what we have and we can continue to discuss Aliens and Tech and how we want all of that to evolve.

[Mr.Person]

Maybe we should make the Exterminator able to choose between the basic Mind Shield and the ability to have its kill be Psychic instead of up-close-and-personal, with the upgraded mind shield tech becoming a normal mind shield device. Or give him a mind shield on nights he doesn't kill.

Psychic killing is definitely something to look into, possibly as a Large Tech, possibly as a whole separate role. I'm not a balance guru, I think I've proven that.

For the rest of it, I think you have some good ideas there. For Round 16 I think we'll just go with what we have and we can continue to discuss Aliens and Tech and how we want all of that to evolve.

Get cracking on it, I expect some good techs from you when Round 16 is over  . One idea you should stew over is giving all the Aliens different tech choices (with a healthy amount of overlap, of course) to being them in line with the new Mad Scientists. More aliens would be good. One problem is that most Aliens are defined by their win-con since any abilities would be better as techs, and there aren't many third party win-cons.

Here's another tech idea:
Doppleganger Controller: One of the Dopplegangers will be randomly chosen and placed on the Alien's team. That player becomes a "Controlled Doppleganger". If the Alien doesn't already have a Quicktopic, one will be provided.

Might be a little powerful if an Exterminator already has an Operative. There are ways to fix this, including making the Operative not automatically aligned with the Exterminator. Instead, make the Operative a Mercenary. If the Mercenary exists, any other Alien may use one of their tech slots to hire the Mercenary. The largest tech slot gains the Mercenary's services. If there's a tie, one player will randomly be given the Mercenary's services. The Merc may then use that tech slot however he wishes.The Merc then join the host Alien's team and gets a Quicktopic set up if one doesn't already exist, and the Mercenary's win con then becomes the same as the host Alien (IE: If a Survivor hires a Mercenary, the Mercenary wins if the Survivor survives. If a Scientist is hired, the Merc wins if the Scientist gets all the species he needs (Which is awkward, I know, but hey, why not?)) If no player offers the Mercenary a tech slot, the Mercenary's win con and goal become "Survive". Tech may not be offered after the tech slots are chosen.

Alternatively, make the Aliens only find out about the Merc after they've picked their tech. Then, they offer their tech to the Merc and the Merc chooses which tech he wants. They may do this at any time, but the alignment change only happens at the end of any day or night phase. Certain techs should be impossible to give away (It'd be a little strange to have a Controlled Dopp working for a Merc working for an Exterminator, for instance). Another thing to consider is making the Merc's win-con be both "Survive" and "Host alien's win con", which means he has to be careful not to join up with a Scientist.

The actual Operative could be changed to not be assigned to any one alien all the time, but automatically assigned to one alien at the beginning of the game. For instance, while the Op could still be assigned to an Exterminator, he could also be assigned to a Survivor. It's totally random.

These ideas all need work; they're pretty confusing. Still, I like the idea of seeing a Mercenary or Operative and not knowing who he was working for, or even if a Merc was working for anyone. Both should obviously only appear in games with one or more aliens in them.

[Org]

No.
No tech should automatically target a specific type of player.
They should have to guess.

[Leafsnail]

I think it's a product of the whole "having to go out and shoot people to win" thing... they fall victim to Dopplegangers, War Veterans, Vengeful Bodyguards, etc., and they don't have the backup that the Dopples do to still pull a victory out of a bad kill. They've got the worst of both worlds, in that the town will see them as killers, the dopples see them as threats, and they have no real team to help them out.

That's the whole point of a Serial Killer... but what seems like their biggest weakness (no teammates for backup) can be their biggest strength in a relatively PR light game (no teammates to connect to... see BYOR 1 where I got to the final three without any real suspicion (desu)).  The general idea behind the role is that they have extra knowledge - they know there's a Serial Killer, a mafia, a town and probably nothing else.  The other advantage an SK usually gets is being able to claim as a vigilante, although the paranormal SK lacks that.

[Pandarsenic]

I think it's a product of the whole "having to go out and shoot people to win" thing... they fall victim to Dopplegangers, War Veterans, Vengeful Bodyguards, etc., and they don't have the backup that the Dopples do to still pull a victory out of a bad kill. They've got the worst of both worlds, in that the town will see them as killers, the dopples see them as threats, and they have no real team to help them out.

That's the whole point of a Serial Killer... but what seems like their biggest weakness (no teammates for backup) can be their biggest strength in a relatively PR light game (no teammates to connect to... see BYOR 1 where I got to the final three without any real suspicion (desu)).  The general idea behind the role is that they have extra knowledge - they know there's a Serial Killer, a mafia, a town and probably nothing else.  The other advantage an SK usually gets is being able to claim as a vigilante, although the paranormal SK lacks that.

That's why I think the psychic kills would be a good option. It lets the Exterminator not have to worry about losing everything in one night because something completely stupid happens. It just seemed unfair that Toony had everybody fooled and suddenly "LOL YOU HIT A DOPPELGANGER WAR VET! TOWN WINS 'CAUSE OF IT!"

[Mephansteras]

I'm ok with a Tech option that lets him do a Psychic kill, especially since that carries the risk of hitting someone with a Mind Shield and then not actually killing them.

Of course, had Toony taken a Personal Shield he'd have survived the War Vet, so it's not like it was completely unfair.

[Pandarsenic]

Of course, had Toony taken a Personal Shield he'd have survived the War Vet, so it's not like it was completely unfair.

Then make the Personal Shield mandatory, if it's going to be necessary for him to win.

[Org]

Of course, had Toony taken a Personal Shield he'd have survived the War Vet, so it's not like it was completely unfair.

Then make the Personal Shield mandatory, if it's going to be necessary for him to win.

I agree.

[forsaken1111]

Also give him a jetpack.

[Pandarsenic]

If you do the "Well you need a Personal Shield anyway" thing, you might do Small+Medium+Large Tech since the only particularly useful Small Tech for Exterminators is the Personal Shield but some bold souls might try to get by without it. Holoform Modulator is weaker than Adv. Holoform Modulator, Scanner is weaker than Intel in a lot of ways though they are different, Stun Orb is in most ways inferior to Stun Bomb, and Mind Shield is unnecessary (and frankly, grabbing an Adv. Mind Shield is a waste if there's one thing my experiences have shown).

Alternatively, give each item a size of 1 to 3 (small=1, med=2, large=3, for the slower among us), and instead of saying Exty has 1 med and 1 large, just go "5 units of tech storage on your ship. Go nuts." If he wants five shields, hell, let him do it!

Also, Kook is still listed as being Human or Corrupted Human (no longer exists), and the Personal Shield is noted to protect against Morningkills, but we no longer have any morningkills.

[ToonyMan]

Of course, had Toony taken a Personal Shield he'd have survived the War Vet, so it's not like it was completely unfair.

Then make the Personal Shield mandatory, if it's going to be necessary for him to win.

I agree.

Being the victim I agree of course.

[Mephansteras]

Hehe. But it's not always necessary. There happened to be a War Vet that game. Some games don't have any. That's what Intel is for, to let you know what you're up against.

Thinking about that, I should specify in the rules that you can chose your Medium tech after you get the results of Intel. That makes sense, and makes Intel a more sensible option.