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Author Topic: Total Interface Overhaul (now with sparkles)  (Read 74283 times)

LucasUP

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Re: Total Interface Overhaul (now with sparkles)
« Reply #180 on: June 15, 2010, 02:40:39 pm »

I haven't played much StarCraft, but I think its a great example of Mouse/Keyboard use. The really good players always go for the keyboard shortcuts because they ARE faster. The mouse is still used for certain specific things, like moving units to a precise location extremely quickly, or going to an exact location on the map.
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SlowDog

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Re: Total Interface Overhaul (now with sparkles)
« Reply #181 on: June 15, 2010, 05:27:28 pm »

Not sure is this fits with what the OP is after, but:

Would it be possible, rather than there to be a total interface overhaul as such,  for Toady to expose/create interfaces for others to hook in to?

The obvious current example would be Dwarf Therapist, which (AIUI) pokes into memory structures that it's got to find on each release. If there were an exposed interface which was "set Dwarf Id (x) with labour Mining", and "read Dwarf(x) status", etc, there could be competing manager programs which then wouldn't be broken  with each release. Toady would obviously have to do work to create the interface and get the internal menu system using it himself, but if he did, it would be known to be complete and sufficient.

You could do some things by just allowing the existing menu structure to be driven by an external program; (init)->bpuukk<right><down> builds a 3x3 farm down from the current cursor position, for example. There'd need to be program feedback for workshops and the like, though.



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MaDeR Levap

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Re: Total Interface Overhaul (now with sparkles)
« Reply #182 on: June 15, 2010, 05:46:43 pm »

My 2 eurocents...

While I was happy with existence of CORE 51 (so Toady maybe will decide to decouple game world and interface), I don't think it will be implemented any time soon. At least we have resizable window now. There are still problems with it (many screens does not resize) and it needs fixed.

And about completely new interfaces, I think we should make these assumptions:
  • Both mouse and keyboard should be supported. Ideally, one could play using only mouse, another only keyboard, and most will probably use both on various occassions and when more convienent.
  • Project for minimum supported size (80x25), of course extendable for higher resolutions.
  • Project with tile letters. We like challenges, aren't we?
In light of this, robolee'es interface is interesting.

In other UI-related news, I fully support getting rid of designating rooms from objects. I would like zones all the way. Hospital zone (already exists, will be mentioned here and there for comparison), bedroom zone, stockpile zone, workshop zone, etc... Place in bedroom zone cabinet and it will used to contain 50 xKitten socksx personally owned by dorf assigned to this zone. Place it in hospital zone and will be full of medical supplies. Place statue and it will do nothing except usual things (same as placed outside of any zone).

Downsides:
  • Some relearning time needed from old gamers that are so used to current way that would have problem with this concept now, like Deathworks.

Upsides (some of them was mentioned earlier by other people):
  • Easier to comprehend for new gamers in comparison to current system of zillion (okay, four) ways to do same thing.
  • Allows to have important options in menu tree (not completely detached and hidden like now), like command "designate zone"->list of zone groups-> list of zones.
  • Very elastic workshops (afaik possible now only with hospital): any size (declutter, anyone? in fact, clutter could be actually visible on map), incompleted with reduced functionality, requiring custom furniture (some of them could function as impassable tiles known from old workshops) etc.
  • Modders heaven.
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Jiri Petru

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Re: Total Interface Overhaul (now with sparkles)
« Reply #183 on: June 15, 2010, 07:19:03 pm »

  • Project for minimum supported size (80x25), of course extendable for higher resolutions.

Is there any reason for this besides Curses nostalgia? 80x25 using the default tileset is ridiculously small. And above that, why would you even measure the game screen in squares? The logical way seems to be to allow the user to set up a resolution and then fill the resolution with squares, not the other way around.

All: What do you think a sensible minimum resolution is? I went for 1024x768, allowing 800x600 might be nice but I don't think anyone actually uses it any more and the added screen space really makes a difference when designing interface.

EDIT:
Would it be possible, rather than there to be a total interface overhaul as such,  for Toady to expose/create interfaces for others to hook in to?

Is has been discussed, yes. The current situation seems to be that Toady has no intention to open any part of the code, probably not even make an API for others, and I'm not going to challenge it... not in this thread because it's potentially a very flamable issue. But feel free to open a new thread.  ;)
« Last Edit: June 15, 2010, 07:22:17 pm by Jiri Petru »
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Footkerchief

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Re: Total Interface Overhaul (now with sparkles)
« Reply #184 on: June 15, 2010, 08:49:13 pm »

But feel free to open a new thread.  ;)

Or not.  Read these quotes from Toady first, at a minimum:

Anyway, yes, this has been suggested before and Toady has made a couple direct responses.  Any supporters of the idea should definitely read these:

Spoiler: response (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: followup (click to show/hide)

Also some earlier stuff:

Spoiler: part 1 (click to show/hide)

Spoiler: part 2 (click to show/hide)

Made it this far?  Here are previous threads we've had (and I probably missed some):

http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=30070.0
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=4753.0
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=28068.0
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=21806.0
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=46189.0
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=32054.0
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=34132.0
http://www.bay12forums.com/smf/index.php?topic=56066.0
« Last Edit: June 15, 2010, 08:54:15 pm by Footkerchief »
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RAM

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Re: Total Interface Overhaul (now with sparkles)
« Reply #185 on: June 15, 2010, 09:24:33 pm »

I haven't played much StarCraft, but I think its a great example of Mouse/Keyboard use. The really good players always go for the keyboard shortcuts because they ARE faster. The mouse is still used for certain specific things, like moving units to a precise location extremely quickly, or going to an exact location on the map.
Starcraft is %100 mouse-controlled, with some keyboard alternatives to some buttons if you want them. Starcraft uses larger individual grid-points than DF, so mouse control is more precise than it would be in DF, and keyboard selection would be faster than in DF. But Starcraft is a continuous session, the mouse is faster for imprecise selection and speed is everything in Starcraft. I am happy with the way that DF pauses when I am doing something, and I don't want a mouse jerk to mess up my zone selection, I fully support a combination of control schemes, but I do not want to be forced to use a mouse. Not that my opinion matters much in the grand scheme of things...
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zwei

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Re: Total Interface Overhaul (now with sparkles)
« Reply #186 on: June 16, 2010, 02:09:50 am »

I haven't played much StarCraft, but I think its a great example of Mouse/Keyboard use. The really good players always go for the keyboard shortcuts because they ARE faster. The mouse is still used for certain specific things, like moving units to a precise location extremely quickly, or going to an exact location on the map.

Basically, mouse is superior for inputing positional data, keyboard for commands.

One of bad things about DF interface is that keyboard is used for navigating in game map and placing stuff, even with shift-arrows, it is just slow and inefficient.


I agree that the game would need a variable width fonts but it would have to be like in the above video (... in the link), not a true type font, sorry if anyone finds this insulting but the fonts in all the other mock-ups are horrible, any game font should either be custom made or follow the aesthetics of the game, just using something like arial in a game drastically reduces the quality IMO.

While Arial usage is dreadfull, but there is nothig wrong with using TT fonts in general. Custom made bitmap fonts are usually even more ugly (see pretty much any random tileset). Hell, you really want some features like kerning and already figured out letter spacing (which is terrible in most custom made fonts). There is no point in throwing away features ...
 
As far as aesthetics goes, game does not have any. I would be fond of, for example, 19th century adventure book style. This one is also free to download and personal and commercial use btw.

sadis

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Re: Total Interface Overhaul (now with sparkles)
« Reply #187 on: June 16, 2010, 02:36:29 am »

This is kind of what I wanted with the mouse support in my mock-up, I was thinking about using the mouse to be able to designate anything like walls and so forth (though I think instead of the walls being L shaped it should be rectangular).

Why not make it so that you can select the amount of sides (or angles) with a number key.

You start drawing a wall and it does only straight line until you press 2 (for two sides), and now you're drawing L-shape. By pressing 4 you can draw rectangle. 3 would be somewhat harder. It should draw C-shape but I'm not sure how it should select which side is left open. Maybe the side next to start point that is in clockwise direction from cursor, like this:
Code: [Select]
C = cursor, S = startpoint

Cxxxxxxxxx     |     x        S     |     Sxxxxxxxxx     |     xxxxxxxxxC
x              |     x        x     |              x     |     x        x
x              |     x        x     |              x     |     x        x
x              |     x        x     |              x     |     x        x
xxxxxxxxxS     |     Cxxxxxxxxx     |     xxxxxxxxxC     |     S        x
So that you would always have the open side next to where you started and would just draw depth and width from there. But this is somewhat off-topic.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2010, 02:40:51 am by sadis »
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Jiri Petru

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Re: Total Interface Overhaul (now with sparkles)
« Reply #188 on: June 16, 2010, 05:09:15 am »

Wouldn't it be easier to simply draw an L first and then a line?
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robolee

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Re: Total Interface Overhaul (now with sparkles)
« Reply #189 on: June 16, 2010, 01:18:05 pm »

The point is that if its a box perimeter then you can just remove what you don't need, that's gotta be easier than predicting or designating which way the L/U will face. (and the fact that I can't remember one instance of me making an L or U shaped wall  (the only use would be if you were building onto a mountain face).
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Jiri Petru

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Re: Total Interface Overhaul (now with sparkles)
« Reply #190 on: June 28, 2010, 02:46:43 pm »

For inspiration: the creator of Goblin Camp posted a demonstration of simple, yet effective take on standing production orders.
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sweitx

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Re: Total Interface Overhaul (now with sparkles)
« Reply #191 on: June 29, 2010, 03:30:37 pm »

The point is that if its a box perimeter then you can just remove what you don't need, that's gotta be easier than predicting or designating which way the L/U will face. (and the fact that I can't remember one instance of me making an L or U shaped wall  (the only use would be if you were building onto a mountain face).

I think that's a good idea, a U-shaped box just need two draws, a box with a line removal.  L-shaped box is just 2-lines, etc.
One can even envision a way to handle other shapes, such as circle, ellipses, etc.

Another interesting thought!  A view in different dimension!  Say the ability to see/designate build in your fortress from the side.
Going to make this into a separate suggestion.
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Draco18s

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Re: Total Interface Overhaul (now with sparkles)
« Reply #192 on: June 29, 2010, 04:40:22 pm »

One can even envision a way to handle other shapes, such as circle, ellipses, etc.

If I recall correctly from CAD software there are something like five different ways to designate a circle.

Tangent-Tangent-Tangent
Tangent-Tangent-Radius
Center-Radius
Three points
Two-point diameter
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Jiri Petru

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Re: Total Interface Overhaul (now with sparkles)
« Reply #193 on: July 08, 2010, 11:36:38 am »

How to handle Material Selection
Now the Workshop Material Selection topped the eternal voting and was implemented to the upcoming features list, I started thinking about how to handle it in terms of interface. I wanted to draw a mockup, but the solution is so simple it doesn't even need one.

Use the uniform system for workshop items!
You could call them "recipes" instead of uniforms or whatever.

Each workshop now comes with a list of "recipes" that can be made there. But you could expand the list by defining your own recipes. You would then name them and they would appear in the menu. It's the same thing as with uniforms, except you wouldn't be able to delete the defaults.

Let's take craftsdwarves workshops, for example. The default list would look something like this (from the top of my head)
- cloth crafts
- decorate with bone
- decorate with horn/ivory
- decorate with pearl
- decorate with shell
- horn/ivory crafts
- leather crafts
- pearl crafts
- rock crafts
- rock mugs
- rock short sword
- shell leggings
- shell gauntlets
- totem


Now if I wanted to create something very specific, I would click "Add a new recipe". Which would bring up a new screen, something like the uniform definition screen. This screen would probably be very complicated, but in the end, I'd define something like "Carp bone helm" + "studded with cow horns" + "encrusted with red sapphires" + "bands of rose gold"... name my creation "horned helmet" and save.

The order list would then look:
- cloth crafts
- decorate with bone
- decorate with horn/ivory
- decorate with pearl
- decorate with shell
- horned helmet
- horn/ivory crafts
- leather crafts
- pearl crafts
- rock crafts
- rock mugs
- rock short sword
- shell leggings
- shell gauntlets
- totem


Easy peasy!

The uniform system has no cons, only pros! It remembers all your recipes (and if you don't want them remembered, simply delete them). And most important of all, it makes material selection completely optional. We definitely don't want to force the player to choose a material every time he orders something. The material selection screen should be something a player could go 100 % without, they could play the whole game without opening it once.

The uniforms/recipes could also be exportable and transferrable between games!
« Last Edit: July 08, 2010, 11:40:54 am by Jiri Petru »
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zwei

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Re: Total Interface Overhaul (now with sparkles)
« Reply #194 on: July 08, 2010, 12:32:58 pm »

...

While we are at it, i would also like ability to "clone item" - say, i have this golden breastplate with image of lion in rubies in it and decide i want several, so i let my dwarves examine it and create recipe for it.

Also, recipe should be able to create several items: For example, "full clothing" recipe with contains leather boots, socks, trousers, etc..
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