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[RAM]

Pretty cool demonstration of what DF's interface could look like.

That is a bit too visual and imprecise for my tastes, but I can see that other people would prefer it.

[Cruxador]

Pretty cool demonstration of what DF's interface could look like.

It's not bad. I really can't get behind using context menus as the entirety of the menu system, but the widespread ability to place and draw using the mouse would certainly be a welcome addition.

[Deathworks]

Hi!

Pretty cool demonstration of what DF's interface could look like.

While I personally would still prefer the current interface over such a mouse-driven one, that suggestion is actually something I would support: The thing is, the basic structure of the interface is not changed, which means that the suggested mouse-driven interface can actually co-exist peacefully with the current interface (they have the same "menu-tree").

Not my cup of tea, personally, but a very good proposal for an expansion for those who need it.

Deathworks

[sadis]

Pretty cool demonstration of what DF's interface could look like.

That looks quite cool. Tooltips are helpful and using mouse to placing and designations would be nice (and in some cases faster) alternative. I would rather use keyboard shortcuts to select what I'm building or placing though, as wading through mouse menus is slow and prone to misclicks.

[LucasUP]

Well I definitely think the UI needs improving, but I also think it can wait. Toady has put some effort into this already, changing how menus work and are organized.
I was happy to even just see the labor menu be sorted into sub-menus.
I don't think rushing Toady will be helpful. I'm just repeating others, but the big issues/bugs should be the highest priority right now.
Of course I can play Dwarf Fortress fine as-is. A shiny new interface would be most beneficial to those who are new and learning. Seriously, figuring out something simple like how to LOOK AT THINGS is not straightforward. It took me a while to understand how you must use the k button, but sometimes the q button, but no wait, not for that, use v. or was it r? u right?
Even for those competent with the current interface, as many people have said, certain things just take too much effort/digging through menus to do.
I think the FIRST thing needs to be re-organizing/designing the main game menu. It's too clustered and scary for new players. Hard to find the information you need at a glance.

I like some of the concept from that Goblin Camp interface, although I think it still looks kinda ugly. I think keyboard shortcuts /are/ faster for a lot of things in DF, but when I saw defining the shape of a zone/stockpile/wall with the mouse, it made me wish things were that simple.

Edit: Basically, Jiri's most recent concept is absolutely the most visually pleasing, simple, and excellently organized I've seen so far.

[jeffb]

Why people think a mouse interface & keyboard shortcuts are mutually exclusive ill never know.

It'll be interesting to see what becomes of Goblin Camp, I'm surprised there aren't more roguelikes in the same vein as DF.

[Jiri Petru]

Pretty cool demonstration of what DF's interface could look like.

Ladies and gentlemen, we have a winner here!

On more serious note: the mouse support is brilliant, the click and drag is brilliant. I wouldn't personally hide all the menus under a right click because I still feel things like building menus and military controls should have "buttons" somewhere in the interface where there are instantly visible. Things I would personally move under the right click are selecting units/buildings/items etc. See this post.

Also I agree with Deathworks here (for the first time I think ). Hotkeys are crucial. While there's no reason why the Goblin Camp UI couldn't support hotkeys but there's no place where to display them.  So if nothing else, you need some sort of visible menu that allows to to:
1) Present an organized list of the most important functions
2) Show hotkeys

But still, I'm mesmerized.

Edit: Basically, Jiri's most recent concept is absolutely the most visually pleasing, simple, and excellently organized I've seen so far.

Oh you make me blush. 

[Deathworks]

Hi!

Jiri Petru: Well, I am assuming that the overview over command keys is toggable, just as it is with the current system: You can have it on the screen all the time, but you can also turn it off.

Jeffb: Well, the mouse excels at other things than a keyboard as they are quite different in the handling. Thus, if you want to optimize the user interface for the mouse, you may end up with making design decisions that are not as good for the keyboard controls. The video we see is, in my eyes, mouse control used optionally for the current keyboard-designed interface.

If the pro-mouse people do think that that is a good solution for them, then I was probably too pessimistic. But then again, being wrong when you have been too pessimistic is much more fun than being wrong when you have been too optimistic :) :) :) :)

As for rogue-likes in the Dwarf Fortress way: Things like Zangband have gone quite a way towards including entire worlds, but they always remained adventurer mode types. Personally, I can understand that people are reluctant to engage in developing an equivalent for Fortress mode: 1. It is a lot of work to design. Granted, making a rogue-like from scratch is also not a piece of cake, but I still think that implementing basically a second, real time game on top of a turn-based game would take a while. 2. The combination is not as obvious. Dwarf Fortress makes simulation games meet roleplaying games. While recent RPGs and RTS have somewhat introduced that concept to the general public, I don't see much of a tradition there, thus explaining why it has not been done before. 3. Dwarf Fortress is one hell of a competitor. Nowadays, if you chose to go into that direction, you would have to expect people to compare you with Dwarf Fortress. In the most negative case, you may be seen as a rip-off. In a more positive vein, any short-comings of your title will result in people pointing to how Dwarf Fortress is superior in that aspect (even if it fails in others).

Deathworks

[jeffb]

Well, the mouse excels at other things than a keyboard as they are quite different in the handling. Thus, if you want to optimize the user interface for the mouse, you may end up with making design decisions that are not as good for the keyboard controls. The video we see is, in my eyes, mouse control used optionally for the current keyboard-designed interface.

I'm not sure if you've played a video game in the last 20 or so years but they have recently mastered the arcane arts of combining mouse input while maintaining keyboard shortcuts, its a truly incredible breakthrough and I'm sorry you only just learned about it from reading this post.

[Deathworks]

Hi!

The games I have encountered (e.g. SimCity 4, Tropico 3) were usually designed in such a way that you wouldn't want to rely on the keyboard input as the game was clearly designed for mouse input.

Deathworks

[FatedTemp]

The games I have encountered (e.g. SimCity 4, Tropico 3) were usually designed in such a way that you wouldn't want to rely on the keyboard input as the game was clearly designed for mouse input.

In SC4 moving your mouse where you want a Residential zone and pressing the hot-key (Q,W or E) and dragging out a zone is slightly faster than clicking the menu icon, moving to where you want the zone and dragging it out. But it's not like the difference is enough to make either better than the other. But both are there so you can use which ever you're most comfortable with.

As for keyboard only, well that would be a bad idea, and that's the issue really. DF is a management game like Sim City or  Dungeon Keeper and those games use the mouse (with hot-key support) for a reason, pointing devices are just better suited to that sort of task. Just like you play a flight sim with a joystick, a driving game with a wheel and an FPS with mouse & keyboard (or analogue game pad) you play management games with the mouse; best tool for the job.

Of course there are going to be players who want DF's interface to stay the same or at least similar to what it is now. I'm sure a lot of people were attracted to DF from rogue-likes and their interfaces. But DF isn't a rogue-like in any sense (it didn't even support text until Baughn added it recently), well, I suppose you could call adventure mode a rogue-like-like but the main part of the game is Dwarf Mode and that's more like the other management games already mentioned, and by those standards it has the worst interface of any management game I've ever played.


I don't know how difficult it would be to redesign the interface now, but it would definitely be worth while. It's 15, 27 and 33 on the Eternal Voting, not to mention 7, 8, 12, 26, 32, 36, 47, 50, 52, 57, 59, 67, 70, 88, 94, 96, 97 and possibly others that are in some way related to improving the interface. So the Eternal Voting and suggestion threads like this which discuss improving the interface show people do want a better interface.


I really like some of the ideas in this thread and as has been mentioned: improving the interface doesn't mean you can't keep the hot-keys or the menu with hot-key listing and it could probably be done in steps, organising it better at the game screen level and moving onto various menus such as military and trade one at a time.

tl;dr – The current interface is pretty terrible; but I play the game in spite of it. Improving it would make a huge difference and make the game more fun to play.

[Deathworks]

Hi!

FatedTemp: Well, with SimCity 4, that was my point: You don't play it completely with the keyboard, as it is primarily designed for mouse usage. I think it is relatively rare to have a game that is really designed for two input methods in its core (probably standard 2D RPGs are the exception as keyboard and pad seem to fully supported, although keyboard support often suffers when text is to be entered and you have to use the menu rather than the keyboard to pic the letters (^_^;; )

Personally, I my experiences with FPS indicate that game pad wins out by a big margin to the hybrid controls, at least for me.

And as you point out in your post, there are those people who do like the interface basically the way it is right now and would miss it if it was not available for those who want to use it. I belong to those people.

And as I was trying to express: As long as the old interface is not removed/made insufficient by the changes, I am not opposed to having a mouse alternative. So, if you have no problems with the approach described in the video, there is no real reason for us to argue or get angry at each other: You go for playing with the mouse, I go for playing with the keyboard, and everyone is satisfied.

Deathworks

[robolee]

Pretty cool demonstration of what DF's interface could look like.

This is kind of what I wanted with the mouse support in my mock-up, I was thinking about using the mouse to be able to designate anything like walls and so forth (though I think instead of the walls being L shaped it should be rectangular). However I think the keyboard commands and menu should also be kept, though as the video shows the menu could be a lot smaller with a variable width font..

I agree that the game would need a variable width fonts but it would have to be like in the above video (... in the link), not a true type font, sorry if anyone finds this insulting but the fonts in all the other mock-ups are horrible, any game font should either be custom made or follow the aesthetics of the game, just using something like arial in a game drastically reduces the quality IMO.

[Footkerchief]

I agree that the game would need a variable width fonts but it would have to be like in the above video (... in the link), not a true type font, sorry if anyone finds this insulting but the fonts in all the other mock-ups are horrible, any game font should either be custom made or follow the aesthetics of the game, just using something like arial in a game drastically reduces the quality IMO.

Yeah, fonts matter and using web fonts in a fantasy game is just wrong.  Fortunately they're also easy to swap out, so I didn't figure it was worth discussing.

[Jiri Petru]

Robolee, if you have an eye for fonts, perhaps you could try to find some? Even if they can't be used for legal resons it would be good to have some idea of a desired style. I'll be the first one to admit I'm not good in fonts.