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[Lesconrads]

Dear sir or madam.

I really like the way you presented your ideas. I totally agree, that the interface needs some rearranging and cleaning up.
But then, I came in here to really push the subject that I had horrible experiences with pie-menus. Do you know "neverwinter nights"? If so... you know the problem.
As a magician you needed to go through several circles with 9+ items until you got your spell done. Who ever did this without pausing first MUST be a master of hand-eye-coordination so that he took less than my 4 seconds to do so.

I am a little scared, that all this "mouse crap" will take the flow out of df.
We CAN use the mouse to designate areas for mining... do you do so? Neither do I. It just isn't working with all the other shortcuts where you need both hands on the keyboard. And I LOVE LOVE LOVE shortcuts.

The mouse HAS it's benefits though. When you need to "click" many things that are rather far away, it is handy.

A combination of shortcuts and mouse would be best. You might want to look at menus, that have icons with corresponding shortcuts.
Like a menue this way:

Code: [Select]

Item A     ItemB         ItemC
Item D     ItemE         ItemF
ItemG      ItemH         ItemI
with corresponding keys

Code: [Select]

Q            W                E
A            S                D
Y            X                C
(of cause adjustable for those with other keyboard layouts)
You get different menus but the items on the places always have the same shortcuts.

I hope you see what I wanted to say

[¿]

Using the mouse for viewing tiles and selecting items and people is all I'd ever use it for. The menus should NOT require a mouse. The hotkeys are wicked fast with now. Jiri's mockup is beautiful, but the menus look slow to use.

[Impaler[WrG]]

Every good menu system has mouse hotkeys, its silly to think that any interface that has this much though put into it would lack hotkeys.

[RAM]

I have to agree with liking the keyboard, but there is no reason you would need to drop the current ability to tab in the keyboard menu. Also, the autoscrolling can be annoying when you want to do things near the edge of the screen.
 I suspect that some people go to some lengths to choose a font that they link, giving the option to select multiple fonts for different areas might be nice, but it complicates customisation. I guess that I feel that the interface should have the option of all being similar...
Bear in mind that the more space you devote to one display, the more you will have to intrude upon it to present others. If you have a dedicated information panel, and a dedicated option panel, then you won't need to obscure the playing area in order to do things...
But there are some good ideas there, congratulations!

[AxelDominatoR]

But then, I came in here to really push the subject that I had horrible experiences with pie-menus. Do you know "neverwinter nights"? If so... you know the problem.
As a magician you needed to go through several circles with 9+ items until you got your spell done. Who ever did this without pausing first MUST be a master of hand-eye-coordination so that he took less than my 4 seconds to do so.

Oh, yes, I finished Neverwinter Nights with all expansion packs. It was an example of a bad-designed pie menu.

I was a bit biased in proposing the pie menu because I really like it if properly done ( it should never expand more than a depth level ). I was just curious to see how a pie menu would work into such a interface.

I am for all-text interfaces, by the way ( I'm a console and ascii-lover, nethack style! ), but I liked the design by Jiri Petru and didn't feel like discouraging.

[ChJees]

OP is awesome.

Nothing more needed to be said.

[Jiri Petru]

Thanks for your comments, everyone. It's great that we even have some counter-proposals appearing. Please continue writing what you like and what you don't. This way we can build a repository of ideas and opinions for Toady.

Just a little disclaimer: I know it's a long way to presentation arc. I didn't even hope this suggestion would be used any time soon. And I know many game functions and menus will still change. That being sad, all designs can be changed accordingly. Moreover, I wanted to post this before I forget everything, as I always do.   

As for the keyboard, I did't intend to kill shortcuts. I just didn't include them, because I didn't want to bother. I'm sure you can easily come up with shortcuts for any menu, button or list item I used. Though if the menus are rearranged, you wouldn't be able to keep the current shortcuts and would have to re-memorise new ones.

Perhaps the cursor and selections (left/right clicking, click and drag, etc...) would have to remain mouse-only. Perhaps you could simulate mouse with arrow keys and some other buttons. I don't know. But once the interface is done, creating keyboard shortcuts shouldn't be a problem. It's just that I believe it's better to create a mouse-only interface first, and then build shortcuts on top of it - not the other way around.

The menus in mouse interface tend to be slower then in keyboard interface, indeed*. But the point of it isn't to be fast, it's to be intuitive, easy to use and easy to learn for new users. You basically can't use key interface until you memorise it, which is a terrible obstacle for newcomers. I believe keys should be competely optional. If you are power user, you can use them to play faster. But the point is that you don't have to.

(*) On the other hand, clicking on the map - selecting units, designating areas, cordering soldiers - is much faster with mouse.

----

Other comments, in order of appearance:

Impaler[WrG]: Sorry, can't help you. I can't program a thing. 

The right-click context menu seems inherently problematic.  In other games, generally the screen area of a unit/building/whatever is roughly on par with the screen area of a context menu.  But in DF the menu could easily block hundreds of tiles from view.  This seems like it could get really obnoxious and frustrating.

I'm not sure I understand. Are you saying that the right-click popup can obstruct view? Or that the big menu in the bottom is the problem? If (a) then please consider the popup only appears for a few seconds when you yourself open it. If (b)... well, the menu can be automaticaly hidden when you don' use it - the same way the menu in the current game. I've even included the button. 


AxelDominatoR: Right, pie menus can be cool. But I'm afraid I don't understand what do you want to use them for.  Can you please elaborate or even post a mockup of your own?


Silverionmox: Thanks for your suggestion on the arrangment of menus. Can you please describe how would these appear in the game? I mean, where would the buttons be, etc.? Are these intended to be used the same way as the "Build Menus" in my design?

One thing I don't like in your menus is that you always have to use one more click than necesarry. That's: (1st) click to open a menu, (2nd) click to select a mode - eg. blueprint or from stock? (3rd) click to select an actual item. I don't like the second click and would be happier if it could be somehow integrated to the 1st or 3rd one. But it's just a thought...


juanoleso: Thanks for your mockup! It seems similiar to mine, only that you moved the menus and buttons to different positions. I like it too, thanks. I take it that the menus on the top (File - Edit - View...) are simple placeholders until proper DF menus are placed, right? 

---
(If you feel I've forgotten about you, please raise a hand and I will react).
---

A question for everyone interested who didn't answer yet: what do you think of the menus rearrangement? (I mean moving items to differend menus, renaming them, etc.) Do you want to keep the original menus? Do you like my proposal? Do you like Silverionmox's proposal? Do you have a proposal of your own?

[Silverionmox]

They are mainly intended as an alternative to group options, and include much more hypothetical ones as well. I don't think it's practical to put all those on one panel, it takes up too much space away from the map for that - so they're to be arranged on a bottom line, to appear there (or as a side panel, which is trivial to include an option for) separately (per column) with a mouseclick or keypress. (That has the advantage that they can share space, so potentially many more could be added that would overlap each other if they were to be shown at the same time, while still retaining the association with their position on the bottom line) (ed. grouping the many menu options would certainly be easy to make a raw for). The second click or key will then select which particular option to build (a scrollbar will be needed probably, unless the player prefers his map to be covered while making the selection - or to memorize the associated keys).

The mutually exclusive option at the top of the colums will always have one selected by default (the last used would be practical), so that it won't need to be selected every time again.

[Grax]

Guys, your suggestions are cool. But i'm get used to hodiernal interface.
Keyboard commands takes MUCH less time than mouse clicking-clicking-clicking.

[Footkerchief]

hodiernal

As a Latin student I'm appalled that I've never seen this word before.

[AxelDominatoR]

AxelDominatoR: Right, pie menus can be cool. But I'm afraid I don't understand what do you want to use them for.  Can you please elaborate or even post a mockup of your own?

I'm at work so I cannot draw, right now. Maybe later I'll be able to sketch something.

I had in mind a contextual pie menu for every in-game object.
A few examples to follow:

- Clicking on a dwarf would result in labor, work dogs, soldiering, activate squad, etc to appear.
- A bed would result in just a "make bedroom".
- A building would have "deconstruct" along with other building-specific actions ( pull lever, operate pump, etc etc ).

A pie menu would be a little faster if implemented with an "one-click" operation:
- You press the mouse button and the menu appears.
- You move the pointer over option, selecting it.
- You release the button, at last, triggering the command.

That's only a rough idea, and would be most useful for frequent used actions ( pull lever, for example ).

[Zangi]

Guys, your suggestions are cool. But i'm get used to hodiernal interface.
Keyboard commands takes MUCH less time than mouse clicking-clicking-clicking.

Agreed here.  I like how I can play DF with just the keyboard and not have to deal with the mouse and clicking on squares all the time.  You know, sit back with the keyboard in a comfy position... and just play away.
Though, I would agree with the mouse being a more viable option then it is now...

My design depends on mouse. You can't use it without it. Sure, you can come up with hotkeys, but these were not a priority.

I can't agree with that sentiment...  I want DF to still be fully playable with or without the mouse...
Not saying that change is bad.  Its just that this forces players to use the mouse.  Which doesn't sit well when the DF right now is playable with only the keyboard. 
A lot of old DF players may not take well to forced drastic change like this, especially when it can be seen as someone/Toady saying 'This way is better so you shouldn't be playing the old way, deal with it'. 
I don't believe I would take well to it myself...


Well either way, I wouldn't be saying this if the keyboard only way of playing is preserved or 'made better'.

[Sowelu]

Personally, I find that keyboard tires me out / aggravates my carpal tunnel a lot less than mouse, over a course of many many hours.

And while working etc, I only use a mouse when strictly necessary.

Would adv mode require a mouse or would it be keyboard only?  It would be weird if one mode was playable with only mouse (but not only keyboard), and the other mode was the other way around.

[AxelDominatoR]

I think that having more than a single user interface is feasible ( with a bit of work, that's for sure ).
That would make more players approach DF world using their preferred way of bringing dwarves to sure deat... *ahem* fame and glory! 

I made a comment here about the subject: http://www.bay12games.com/forum/index.php?topic=35050.msg542383#msg542383

[Mikademus]

I prefer DFs UI as it is now with some tweaking and a face lift.  And I won't say this often, but I think that DF should look to M$ apps for UI design.  Here are my ideas that may or may not have been shamelessly lifted from one of the afore mentioned apps:

No open windows, all windows slid closed, action window takes full precedence

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

As the mouse hovers over a small tab, the window expands (exposes clickable selectables as well as hotkeys)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Messages would be on the bottom separate, it would be expandable and shrinkable to whatever height is desired or hideable altogether, then also some kind of dropdown which separates the kinds of messages.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The stockpile menu can be tacked so it stays open and then the messages could be opened along bottom of it.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

or the stockpile menu could be floating alongside the main window if desired so it would always be visible or could be put on a separate monitor.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

In summary, pretty close to what Jiri's got laid out with everything being hideable.  I think i like the right click idea, but I would have to see it in practice to know for sure.

Edit: The Action Window wouldn't squish and stretch like that, that is just me being a little lazy and I'm at work...

The mockups are good for workflow and overview. There is only two problems with them: (1) they will hide information and require you to open and close panels which can be argued to slow down interaction (but is a minor problem); and (2) they are very much in the style of applications, not games. This Visual Studio-ish interface will probably detract from the immersive experience, even if it is good UI design.

I personally prefer the original mock-ups in this thread.