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[Gantolandon]

Freedom of/from Religion is an idea that can work (just like the right to bear arms) as long as it's not abused.  Just like any laws, people will try to bend and break them.  Religious or not.  Not all religions/leaders teach their followers to preach to others.  They may converse with their god in hopes that you will find your way, but they don't always confront you about it.  I know for a fact that people in my family pray that I find "God" because they can't imagine a life without worship but they don't approach me and force it down my throat every chance they get.

The clue point is they want you to "find your way". With family it's easier not to pester anyone with constant preaching, because for most person family bonds are much more important than religion. But there is a lot of people who don't care so much about you as they care about spreading their pet belief.

Most people seem to state that "there is religious intolerance because some people are just dicks". I think it's not true. There is religious intolerance because there are two conflicting viewpoints. We can't do anything to make people get along, we may just oppose violent methods of preaching and promote more peaceful ones. Then we just let the stronger prey on the weaker.

[Yanlin]

I oppose all forms of preaching. I prefer debating.

[Servant Corps]

* Servant Corps sighs.

You know that Pew Survey I metioned a while back that actually caused the Atheist threads to explode?

They did another survey recently, and found that Most Christians Say Non-Christian Faiths Can Lead to Salvation. In fact, 42% of Christians believe that Atheists will have eternal life. That number rises to 56% of Chrisitans if you are asking about people who have no religious faith.

I don't like people arguing that religions and non-religions have to go into conflict, when in fact these surveys show a remarkable amount of tolerance of different faiths (and a possible ignorance of their own faith), where there is more than one path to salvation. I honestly don't know why, but they do. That matters.

Any study on the religion/atheisitc war needs to be grounded in facts, not assumptions. This is where the polls and other forms of research come in handy.

[Akroma]

think of preaching that way:

a religious person honestly believes in what they are saying. eventhough it seems ridiculous, they really believe that heaven and hell exist. for them, it is just as much a fact, as it is a fact that the sky is blue.

so, even under the premise that they are wrong, and no god exists, they are pretty damn sure that he does.
for them, it is fact that, if people follow a sinful lifestyle, that this person is going to hell.
hell is a horrible place in which you would suffer for all eternity.
if you think about what "suffering" and what "eternal" means, one would assume that it is a really bad place to end up in.

preachers don't preach because they want to annoy you, nor do they preach because they want to rub their supremacy all over your face.
they preach because they don't want you to end up in a place like hell.

they want to save you


and even if they are wrong, they are just making an honest mistake


and this is why I am saying that you are just as bad as them. you hear them preaching, think they are annoying and tell them to shut up. eventhough they honestly want to help you.

if you are unable to think of it that way, then don't call yourself tolerant

they might be nuisances, but preachers do not deserve to be looked down upon as a pest

[Gantolandon]

In fact, 42% of Christians believe that Atheists will have eternal life.

And 46% believes they will not. Of course it doesn't mean every one of them has to start a religious war. But it means that some preaching is inevitable.

Also look at the poll presenting religious exclusivity trends. It would seem that amount of people claiming their faith is only one and true grows instead of falling. Even among the catholics.

I oppose all forms of preaching. I prefer debating.

And what is the difference?

[Akroma]

http://www.cracked.com/article_15759_10-things-christians-atheists-can-must-agree-on.html


this is a must-read for this thread

most important quote

So if you want to criticize the Christians' intolerance, then be tolerant. Show them how it's done. Shame them with your tolerance. You won't have to say they're awful. They'll look awful by sheer comparison to you.

[Andir]

and this is why I am saying that you are just as bad as them. you hear them preaching, think they are annoying and tell them to shut up. eventhough they honestly want to help you.

if you are unable to think of it that way, then don't call yourself tolerant

they might be nuisances, but preachers do not deserve to be looked down upon as a pest

A rat just honestly wants to live it's life, eating up whatever source of food it finds.  If it works it's way into a silo and starts eating all the seed... it's a pest.  It doesn't matter what it's motives are.  It's violating the farmer's right to live a healthy life free of rat born disease and infection.  It may not feel that way.  It's just trying to eat, but that doesn't make it NOT a pest.

[Andir]

So if you want to criticize the Christians' intolerance, then be tolerant. Show them how it's done. Shame them with your tolerance. You won't have to say they're awful. They'll look awful by sheer comparison to you.

And they'll pass laws that benefit them while making an Atheists life harder.  It's been proven.  The idea sounds great, but in practice it never works.

[Akroma]

leading by good example does not mean you keep entirely out of politics, nor does it say you can't go on protests

I see you haven't read the entire text and instead take the quote out of context



also, as the text also sais, the entire government and the supreme court are both full of christians, often in majority
yet the rights of homosexuals for example have increased a lot over the last few dozen years

it might be a suprise for you, but christians do not exactly aim at making it as hard as possible for non belivers
if that was the case, they would already have done that

[Sergius]

Atheist protestors -> Militant atheists.
Make up your mind.

There are a lot of people that truly think that by calling someone else an idiot constantly after every mistake they make, it's going to cause them to "smarten up". So, in theory we could say these people have good intentions and the best interests of the insulted "victim" in mind. It would be wrong to call them pests, at worse, they'd be making an honest mistake.

It's too bad nobody has ever come up with a clever comeback to that, like a catchy phrase or something, that people can then later remember and repeat to others, something like "the road to hell is paved with good intentions." Damn I wish I could come up with something but my mind is blank.

[Akroma]

no

protestors: we have the right to be atheists

militant: religion sucks, I have to argue with every religious person I see

[Yanlin]

Want to hear something disturbing? In some American states, Atheists can't run for office.

[Andir]

Want to hear something disturbing? In some American states, Atheists can't run for office.

From a quick search:
http://www.tacomaatheists.com/archives/831

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20090419124657AA5rnGh

Maryland Constitution
Article 37
"no religious test ought ever to be required as a qualification for any office of profit or trust in this State, other than a declaration of belief in the existence of God"

Pennsylvania Constitution
Article I, Sec. 4
"No person who acknowledges the being of a God and a future state of rewards and punishments shall, on account of his religious sentiments, be disqualified to hold any office or place of trust under this Commonwealth."

Tennessee Constitution
Article IX, Sec. 2
"No person who denies the being of God, or a future state of rewards and punishments shall hold any office in the civil department of this state."

it might be a suprise for you, but christians do not exactly aim at making it as hard as possible for non belivers
if that was the case, they would already have done that

Not enforceable Constitutionally, but those of religious background definitely put them in the books.

Edit:
Just read the one from Arkansas:
"No person who denies the being of a God shall hold any office in the civil departments of this State, nor be competent to testify as a witness in any Court"

So Atheists can't legally testify in court.  Talk about trying to criminalize every non-believer.  You couldn't even defend another Atheist in court in Arkansas without swearing to "God."

[Servant Corps]

Hey, guys...

Post here if you want to say that you're avoiding the Atheism Thread because you know it won't help anyone or change anyone's mind, and if it did, it still wouldn't help anyone.

Like me.

I've been trying to steer this topic to discussing the Atheist thread, and instead, this is turning into another Atheist thread. I want PTTG?? to decide, but honestly, I would think that this thread has gone beyond what PTTG?? intended, and that PTTG?? should lock this.

[Andir]

Hey, guys...

Post here if you want to say that you're avoiding the Atheism Thread because you know it won't help anyone or change anyone's mind, and if it did, it still wouldn't help anyone.

Like me.

I've been trying to steer this topic to discussing the Atheist thread, and instead, this is turning into another Atheist thread. I want PTTG?? to decide, but honestly, I would think that this thread has gone beyond what PTTG?? intended, and that PTTG?? should lock this.

Next time he should create a thread that doesn't have "Atheism Thread" in the title if he doesn't wish to talk about Atheism.  Maybe, just maybe, he could put a topic of conversation in there to direct the conversation to whatever means he desires.