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[PTTG??]

GAH! WHY AM I THE ONLY PERSON ON THE INTERNET THAT CAN NEVER PICK A SIDE!

I'm just gonna go over there in the corner and be apathetic.

Room for one more?

And this is the long-lost topic of this thread.
It's saying "don't ask, don't tell" about religion.

[Andir]

GAH! WHY AM I THE ONLY PERSON ON THE INTERNET THAT CAN NEVER PICK A SIDE!

I'm just gonna go over there in the corner and be apathetic.

Room for one more?

And this is the long-lost topic of this thread.
It's saying "don't ask, don't tell" about religion.

Which I might add, includes not praying around others. :p

[Servant Corps]

I really hope this thread would talk about the Flame Wars over religion without having to interject religious/atheistic arguments within it. Discuss it in a rational manner, and find out more about the war without trying to prove one side or another, because there's no need. I want to learn more ABOUT these internet wars and share my experiences fighting in these wars, not be given stupid propaganda.

I was sorely mistaken.

[Andir]

I really hope this thread would talk about the Flame Wars over religion without having to interject religious/atheistic arguments within it. Discuss it in a rational manner, and find out more about the war without trying to prove one side or another, because there's no need. I want to learn more ABOUT these internet wars and share my experiences fighting in these wars, not be given stupid propaganda.

I was sorely mistaken.

It's a hard topic to discuss because everyone feels they have different rights to express their feelings.  Many religious folks are taught that every other belief is wrong as well.  This makes them feel as though they have the right to speak their mind and oppress anyone that would speak ill of it.

[Osmosis Jones]

Please, can't we all just take a big bite of Jackrabbit's =<=Bland Cookie=>=, get along, and move back to more sane topics, like elf extermination or borgly borgles?

[Andir]

Please, can't we all just take a big bite of Jackrabbit's =<=Bland Cookie=>=, get along, and move back to more sane topics, like elf extermination or borgly borgles?

As long as we don't discuss the extermination of borgly borgles.  That's a sensitive issue.

[Aqizzar]

Screw this touchy feely crap about getting along.  I say we all adopt my standard.

If you care enough about the insertion of religion into public life to join the discussion, ipso facto you are too close to the subject to discuss it objectively.

[Andir]

Screw this touchy feely crap about getting along.  I say we all adopt my standard.

If you care enough about the insertion of religion into public life to join the discussion, ipso facto you are too close to the subject to discuss it objectively.

I think you mean eo ipso ... but they are both very close :p

[Gantolandon]

Please, can't we all just take a big bite of Jackrabbit's =<=Bland Cookie=>=, get along,

NEVER! THIS IS WAAAAAAR!

Seriously, it's a big question: can followers of two different, mutually exclusive viewpoints get along? From my experiences it seems they can - but only when they don't take their beliefs too seriously.

[Yanlin]

SHEEEEEEESH! I leave this thread for LESS THAN A DAY and 3 pages worth of misunderstandings and near-flame-wars happen?!

Clarification:

She started praying rather out loud. She was in fact reading a written prayer of some silly card. I was trying to read something rather difficult and due to my horrible personality, whenever I see such blind faith and lack of thought, I have trouble concentrating. It's like jamming my brain in neutral.

Here's the gist of the prayer: "Lord, help me with this task before me where heathens thrive and us devout people don't." yadda yadda yadda Etc. From my knowledge, such prayer does not actually exist. Most such prayers involve praying rather simply to succeed. No mention of ulterior motives, heretics, heathens or the reasoning for the task. She called anyone who passes tests a heathen. Now there's a history, I fear her for her ability to grind my gears with her stupidty. (Like I said. She really IS stupid. Not just religious, but DOWN RIGHT (HADOUKEN!) DUMB!)

Now here's the full conversation translated to the best of my abilities.

Her: *Praying*
Me: I'm trying to concentrate here and you're not helping.
Her: Shut up, heathen!
Teacher: You should respect her religion. (The teacher follows the same one. Judaism if you care. This should be obvious since I'm from Israel.)
Some class"mates": Shut up you fucking atheist. (Atheist is actually considered an insult. Go figure.)
Teacher: Stop being offensive.
Me: Offensive? I'm trying to study!
Teacher: That's it. Get out.

Now this particular teacher approached me later and asked me to never disrespect people's beliefs like that ever again. Naturally, I asked her if atheism counts for that. She paused for a moment and said "No. Atheism is the lack of belief." (An incorrect definition, as you should know.) I told her that is incorrect and she immediately told me that she knows more about this because she actually has a religion and studied it more than I have.

If you're curious, that teacher was a heavily religious substitute teacher who I never saw again. I heard rumors of her being fired.

Now the other teachers at my school are far more respectful and understanding. They all practically hurried to apologize for this incident.

To the best of my knowledge, she (The dumb girl who started praying.) was somehow punished. I don't know how, but I was assured she was. Probably expelled for a few days. But this being a boarding school with lots of drug smoking kids, she could have just as easily stayed in the dorms and never arrive at school during those days. (I'm an external student. I only go to school there. I don't sleep there.)

I also heard there was some lecture about respecting beliefs and it included respect towards atheism. Unfortunately, the lecture was given by an outside atheist science teacher. So nobody took him seriously.

To sum it up, I was being totally tolerant of her religion. I never insulted her religion. On different cases, I openly insulted HER way of following Judaism. Judaism is one of the only religions that I still respect. Most notably, most Jews don't preach and just want to be left alone when it comes to religious matters. But as you can expect, a bunch of stupid teenagers and a heavily religious teacher do not make a great combo for tolerance.

But furthermore, atheism is stigmatized and I am often called a moron for disbelieving god and the bible faced with all the evidence to support it. Arguing this matter is futile as others just dismiss me when I falsify their claims. They believe the bible is the word of God even though it was written by somebody after being passed mouth to ear from village elders for about 1000 years. Not to mention everybody interpreted it differently and the bible contains typos. Not to mention memory degradation over time!

But back on the issue. If you take my word for it, you will see that I was being completely tolerant and just trying to concentrate amongst all the noise being caused by the disruptive assholes I have the displeasure to call "classmates" and the noisy air conditioner. The praying girl certainly didn't help.

Further disclaimer: For the third time, I am not calling her stupid because of her religious habits. She really is stupid. She's bad at math, she's bad at science, she's heavily religious, she hardly knows anything. She's fat. She carries junk food in her back pack and often a large coke bottle. Take my word for it. She is not a reasonable person. If you ask her something like "What is the meaning of life?" she'll say something along the lines of "God is the meaning of life." yadda yadda etc.

Seriously. Bad place to be an atheist.

Special thanks to Andir for not trying to pull the "You're just as bad as her" argument that Akroma falsly did.

Now can we please get back on the fucking topic? I had no idea my little story would cause all this.

[Andir]

I have several highly religious people as friends.  I tell them my thoughts when the topic comes up and they give their viewpoint.  We usually leave it at that.

[Gantolandon]

I have several highly religious people as friends.  I tell them my thoughts when the topic comes up and they give their viewpoint.  We usually leave it at that.

So they don't take their beliefs too seriously - preaching is usually a necessity in many religions. And followers of other, non-religious beliefs usually do this anyway, not because they have to, but because they want to. But I suppose I asked the wrong question.

The right one would be: can two opposite beliefs co-exist without one displacing another?

[Yanlin]

No. They cannot. It is simply impossible. For them to exist, they mustn't be followed. But that makes the whole thing moot since they are still not co-existing.

What ever happened to the whole freedom of religion thing?

"I respect your opinion, but I disagree with it."

Or free speech?

"I disagree with you, but I respect your right to say it."

[Gantolandon]

What ever happened to the whole freedom of religion thing?

"I respect your opinion, but I disagree with it."

Most major religions don't really appreciate this idea. It's alien to them. Todey, most would agree only that one cannot be forcibly converted. But not using force doesn't really mean accepting someone else's beliefs.

I used to disdain preaching religious people. Then I saw atheists doing the same. What is really wrong in voicing someone's opinion? These ideas have to clash. If someone does it in civilised way, than what's wrong with it?

I think your teacher went beyond any reasonable bounds, though - she used her position to promote her beliefs.

[Andir]

I have several highly religious people as friends.  I tell them my thoughts when the topic comes up and they give their viewpoint.  We usually leave it at that.

So they don't take their beliefs too seriously - preaching is usually a necessity in many religions. And followers of other, non-religious beliefs usually do this anyway, not because they have to, but because they want to. But I suppose I asked the wrong question.

The right one would be: can two opposite beliefs co-exist without one displacing another?

It really depends on the beliefs, and the leaders of the religious organization.

There are some die hard Christian leaders that would love to do everything in their power to shut down, ban, and outright discredit anyone defying their religion.  On the same note, there are some Atheists that would do the same.

Freedom of/from Religion is an idea that can work (just like the right to bear arms) as long as it's not abused.  Just like any laws, people will try to bend and break them.  Religious or not.  Not all religions/leaders teach their followers to preach to others.  They may converse with their god in hopes that you will find your way, but they don't always confront you about it.  I know for a fact that people in my family pray that I find "God" because they can't imagine a life without worship but they don't approach me and force it down my throat every chance they get.

Now, that being said, I fully support secularism in government.  I feel as though you can't have freedom of/from religion if it's a part of your government in any way.  It would be hypocritical of said government and if they can't follow their own rules, how can you?  That doesn't mean I want to abolish religion.  I just don't feel it should be used a a tool to govern.  It has been abused for that purpose in the past and still is today in some parts.  Religion is a personal life choice and should be kept that way, just like all life choices.  Free people should not be making laws to abolish life choices (no matter what it may be) unless said choice interferes with another person's freedoms.  That's the basis of our Constitution and it has merit.  It's been twisted over the years by amendments and laws that change it's meaning.