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[Vanigo]

You're still making the same mistake. It doesn't take two labor to turn two wool into two clothing. It takes one. Just one. So, to correct your numbers:

Method      Initial Labor      Invested Resources      Labor Upkeep
Pasture           7                           3                             3
Irrigate hills    6                           2                             3

It's the same labor upkeep as farming three irrigated plains, but the irrigated hills give you an extra bonus: 1 extra food. Oh, and you can build quarries to produce stone instead of food if you want, and you can do that even without a river nearby.
(I also think you're screwing yourself up by wrapping the food for the workers up with the rest of the labor costs, but I'm not even going to get into that.)

And, as for permanent improvements: Higher morale increases your population growth, and it'll give you bonus labor if it gets high enough, potentially paying for itself.

Edit: Admittedly, pastures do kind of suck, but they're the only way to improve food output of a tile with no fresh water.

[mainiac]

In that case, I think the rules need some clarification:

Clothier's workshops
2 wood or stone, 2 labor
No tech required
Doubles production speed of clothing (Normally 2 labor for each)

But the entire marginality of luxuries could be avoided by tracking on a 10x greater scale.  If you kept a decimal place or bumped the numbers up by a factor of 10 (so every civilian uses 1 luxury but you produce 10 units from 1 unit of wool), it would make them require much less labor.

[Vanigo]

Huh. Must have been thinking of the military workshops. I'll fix that.

[mainiac]

Does labor carry over from turn to turn?  Is it possible to do 2 work in one turn, 2 in the next and 2 in the third for a 6 work project for example?

Btw, if you want me to be less of a critic here, I can reel it in.  I'm just figuring that since you are inventing this game as we go, harsh criticism is good.

[RPB]

Well, pastures do facilitate better land management; you can pump a single hill for extra wool and get your food elsewhere (such as a food surplus tile that has other resources you want anyway), with the added flexibility of being able to trade off wool for food if necessary. If you don't have any river hills this might be worthwhile, since you can focus 1 labor on gathering 2 wool and save your other labor for working more valuable river tiles.

(If you do have river hills, you're generally going to end up with wool anyway, so you might as well make use of it.)

Also, working 3 irrigated plains doesn't get you 9 surplus food anyhow, it only gets you 6 surplus food. Farmers need food too.

[Vanigo]

Does labor carry over from turn to turn?  Is it possible to do 2 work in one turn, 2 in the next and 2 in the third for a 6 work project for example?

Yes. You can spend the resources either all at the start, or proportionately to the labor spent.

[mainiac]

Also, working 3 irrigated plains doesn't get you 9 surplus food anyhow, it only gets you 6 surplus food. Farmers need food too.

This is another valid perspective.  I was working from the baseline of "assume you've already fed the city" while you appear to be operating from the baseline of "add additional workers to the city."  By your standard, I reckon the farmers are eating 1.5 food a piece since we want food to work as a luxury.  So each farmer's contribution to everyone else is 1.5 food, or enough luxury for 3 other citizens.

Going by this "per capita addition" system the clothes makers are producing luxury for between 2.5 and 5 depending the size of the city.  The effectiveness takes a hit at every 10k mark but trends upwards as cities grow large.  (If 1 worker only converted one wool to one clothes, the effectiveness would be between 1.67 and 3.33, clearly a bad investment.)  So clothes can at least out compete food most of the time if you can afford the initial investment.  However this is assuming that you are willing to pay a somewhat high premium for morale.

Does labor carry over from turn to turn?  Is it possible to do 2 work in one turn, 2 in the next and 2 in the third for a 6 work project for example?

Yes. You can spend the resources either all at the start, or proportionately to the labor spent.

I'm guessing fractions don't carry over however?  If someone has the mechanic and does 2 labor of construction, what happens to their bonus half point from the mechanic?

[Nirur Torir]

Two questions from looking at the tech tree:

1) Does one need to have researched metal working to find metal ores?

2) Shouldn't horseback riding require animal taming?

Edit - To add to the conversation, I'm likely to have plenty of wool to sell/trade by the time we've all met and have researched trade. Mountain biomes don't offer the luxery of overfeeding people to make them comply with my benevolent despotism.

[Vanigo]

I'm guessing fractions don't carry over however?  If someone has the mechanic and does 2 labor of construction, what happens to their bonus half point from the mechanic?

Unless you've got another two points of construction somewhere else that turn, yeah, it's lost.

Two questions from looking at the tech tree:

1) Does one need to have researched metal working to find metal ores?

2) Shouldn't horseback riding require animal taming?

1) You don't need it, but it sure doesn't hurt.

2) Yeah, probably, but I didn't want to start the Neo-Tyrgani off with a tier 2 tech.

[mainiac]

I'm guessing fractions don't carry over however?  If someone has the mechanic and does 2 labor of construction, what happens to their bonus half point from the mechanic?

Unless you've got another two points of construction somewhere else that turn, yeah, it's lost.

Hmmm.. that severely restricts it's utility.

[Vanigo]

I'm guessing fractions don't carry over however?  If someone has the mechanic and does 2 labor of construction, what happens to their bonus half point from the mechanic?

Unless you've got another two points of construction somewhere else that turn, yeah, it's lost.

Hmmm.. that severely restricts it's utility.

Yeah... You know what? I am going to bump it up to a 33% increase.

[Pandarsenic]

Suggestion: Maybe for fractional bonuses you roll a percentage-dice of however much you went over and if it's under the number you went over, you get the next point?

Example:

I put 2.5 research points into Construction. Two points are processed immediately.

.5 remaining: 50%. Roll a 1-100 integer on random.org and if it's 1-50 I get a third point added, if it's 51-100, I don't.

If I had 2.66%, you'd roll the 1-100 and on a 1-66 I'd get the third point, on 67-100 it's lost.

[Vanigo]

Eh, too much of a hassle for me, and it'd make planning too hard for you. I'm already messing with you with randomized research speeds, random events, and unknown special abilities; that's quite enough.

[RPB]

This is another valid perspective.  I was working from the baseline of "assume you've already fed the city" while you appear to be operating from the baseline of "add additional workers to the city."  By your standard, I reckon the farmers are eating 1.5 food a piece since we want food to work as a luxury.  So each farmer's contribution to everyone else is 1.5 food, or enough luxury for 3 other citizens.

That's a pretty big assumption to make: not everyone can feed the city and still have 3-4 leftover plains with access to irrigation. Not without using up a ton of labor, anyhow.

While we're on the subject of productivity and morale... how exactly would the production modifiers from morale be calculated, since there are no fractions?

[Vanigo]

Just multiply by 1.1 or 1.2 and round down. (Or by .7, .8, or .9 if morale is low, of course.)